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PCCs & Indoor Ranges:

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by citoriguy, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    Maybe it's the "wah it might make people might think its ok to shoot a high powered rifle on the range and they'll murder the backstop!" kind of "wrong idea".

    It's still bullshit but different motive from PC bs.. .
     
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  2. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    PCC vs handgun vs rifle sound:

    PCC_sounds.png
     
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  3. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    those db numbers seem a tad low, though.... but seems right in relative terms
     
  4. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    I didn't want to peg my sound level meter, and I didn't want small changes in the location of the gun to have huge changes in the reading, so I put the meter 30 feet away. That reduced the variation shot to shot, and gave me numbers that weren't just infinity every time. :)
     
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  5. buckfarack

    buckfarack NES Member

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    They might have a point if the said no long guns on the pistol range because people may think it’s ok to shoot high powered rifles, but to allow 15-22s and .50cal black powder rifles and not a Sub2000 or PC9 because people may mistake those for high powered rifles? Pure idiocy.
     
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  6. TomMontana

    TomMontana NES Member

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    I was comparing the sound being much louder shooting rifles and PCCs indoors compared with shooting them outdoors. To me it's unpleasant with the sound bouncing off walls and dealing with the limited space of each indoor lane. I have four PCCs myself and prefer shooting outside in general and at steel plates if the weather agrees.

    I like how the red bar for the CX4 is a sliver compared to AR15, which is how I perceive it too. LOL.

    It's interesting that a hand gun is louder than a PCC using the same ammo (e.g. 147gr). Shooting a handgun would be at arms length; so the slide flying back and gun powder explosion noises would be 2' from your ears. Whereas, the PCC would be cheekwelded so you would get the port pop to go with the muzzle blast of a supersonic round in a rifle length barrel. Not to mention the potential "sproiiinnng" sound of the buffer spring in an AR9. Yet, a handgun is still a bit louder. Anyone know what's the difference maker between the two in regards to sound perception for the shooter?
     
  7. strangenh

    strangenh NES Member

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    Yeah, a longer barrel means the gasses have expanded longer behind the round, pressures have dropped, and the explosion is less sharp - not to mention the gasses are often still burning as they exit a handgun. Net overall a significant decrease in impulse at the muzzle. In ye verrye olde dayse, poachers would use very long barrels to make their shots less detectable (seriously, not talking about hunting geese but about shooting roosting birds).
     
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  8. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

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    Our policy is no long guns whatsoever on the indoor range.
     
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  9. buckfarack

    buckfarack NES Member

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    Who’s policy?
     
  10. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

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    My range’s policy.
     
  11. buckfarack

    buckfarack NES Member

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    Got it. I mis-read your post.
     
  12. Freddy B

    Freddy B NES Member

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    That's the reason they give at my club for not allowing PCC's. But they allow rimfire rifles. :emoji_thinking:
     
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  13. bondsman333

    bondsman333 NES Member

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    Hopefully clubs are starting to come around on implementing the correct rules on PCC's because every time I ask I get different answers.
    I was told barrel length was an issue, but my SBR's have 5.5" barrels... barely longer than most full size handguns.
    I was also told I couldn't shoot at steel with a PCC but could with my handguns.
     
  14. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

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    I respect that every range gets to set its own rules. As a member of two that I really enjoy, I’m not looking to rock the proverbial boat, but what’s been said here confirmed my initial guess that the velocity delta between PCCs and pistols, at your standard 50-100ft indoor range, are likely negligible.
     
  15. Gasgunner

    Gasgunner NES Member

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    I’ve used my Scorpion in IDPA matches. Running 147g sub sonic, it's almost pellet gun quiet. Like people pulling their ear pro away from their head to confirm that it’s that quiet.
     
  16. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    The majority of the noise comes from the muzzle, so that's part of it. But the absolute sound pressure level difference comes from the gas pressures being much lower out of a 16" barrel than a 4" one. That's more or less how suppressors work: they hold onto the gas and let it expand into a chamber before releasing them after the pressure drops. Obviously real suppressors are vastly more effective than just a longer barrel.

    If you've ever fired a .22 rifle and a .22 pistol side by side, the "running out of powder to burn" effect is quite obvious.


    Which club is this?
     
  17. Koolmoose

    Koolmoose NES Member

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    Mass Firearms School allows PCC’ up to at least 357magnum.
    Cape Cod Gun Works indoor range is rated to 50 BMG.
    Bass River is 22 rifle indoors plus no magnums, but PCC’s are good on all of the outdoor pistol and rifle ranges.
    Last year they ran a PCC match that I missed. I’m looking forward to attending one this year.
     
  18. amm5061

    amm5061 NES Member

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    This is one of the answers I got when I tried to point this out about the pistol pit side of our outdoor range. I was told, "Pistols and rimfire rifles only!" Of course then I had to make it more fun by asking, "Well, what about my fixed-mag AR pistol with the 8" barrel? It's a pistol!" Never got an answer about that one.

    I've also had someone give me the velocity argument. And my response to that was the same as has been demonstrated here: that 9mm out of a 16" barrel still has far less velocity and energy than a .454 Casull or .500 S&W, both of which are acceptable to shoot at that backstop with. Never got a coherent answer to that either, other than looping back to the above argument about people thinking it would be okay to use rifles.

    I gave up after that. I'll shoot my PCCs and shorty ARs at the 50 yard range like a good boy because it's not worth dealing with that argument and circular logic again. It makes my head want to explode.
     
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  19. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

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    Now you’re just being seriously disingenuous.
     
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  20. Hardwired

    Hardwired NES Member

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    Same shit. After investing on ar9 setup and filing a form1 the damn club changed the rules. The whole purpose was for indoors - gah!

    Someone will probably freak out when I take the 22lr STG-44 out of the crate and rack the b..... and pew pew pew [mg]

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Thirwell1216

    Thirwell1216 NES Member

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    The data posted here is great. I still get some dirty looks though when I fire a semi-auto Uzi and MP5 clone on the indoor range though.
     
  22. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

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    Maynard Rod & Gun. I am wrong though - .22 rimfire rifles are allowed, and appear to be the only rifle allowed indoors. I can't recall seeing anyone shooting a .22 rifle indoors though.
     
  23. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

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    I just have no sympathy for those who complain about the rules at their club.

    If you don't like the rules, get involved in the club. Go to the meetings. Volunteer at work parties. Run for election. Chances are most work at the club is done by a very small number of people who would welcome an extra set of hands. Chances are they have openings in the leadership and no one is stepping up to run for open seats on the board.

    The rules at the club were written by people, people who were well meaning and spent time to try to do the right thing. I know you think you know better. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Chances are you don't know the history of why the rules are they way they are. So get involved and help.

    At my club, concealed carry was not allowed on club property. I didn't bitch about it online. I didn't bitch about how it was a stupid rule written by "fudds". Instead, I got involved. I went to meetings. I went to work parties. I became a board member. Then I became a club officer. I asked the executive board about the rule, how it came about, why I thought it could and should be changed. It took several years and multiple attempts. It wasn't until a particular old-timer left the board that I was able to get that rule changed.

    The way I got the rule changed was that our range rules were out of date. The executive board recognized that, but no one had taken the lead to rewrite the rules. Instead of just bitching about it, I rewrote the rules and brought a draft to the executive board for review. It took a lot of work with the executive board to reach consensus. That involved a lot of compromise. Are the resulting rules everything I wanted? No, that's the nature of compromise and working with others. A few years later, we rewrote the rules again.

    If you think the rules at your club should be changed, then get involved and work to change them. It will take diplomacy, hard work, persistence, and compromise.
     
  24. DarthRevan

    DarthRevan Instructor NES Member

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    But then what would we bitch about?
     
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  25. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    Each other. Duh.
     
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