PCCs & Indoor Ranges:

[citoriguy]

Hi all - I hope everyone's having a great weekend. I figured this would be a good question, given the knowledge base we have here, about bullet velocity. My wife and I were talking about this and I realized I had no idea of what the answer could be.

It's my understanding that PCCs are generally, if not mostly, (all maybe?) not allowed at indoor ranges given the increased velocity and added wear on most backstops. Our question is simply this - what's the velocity delta, generally speaking, between a pistol and a PCC? If I used my Glock 19 with Winchester White Box 115gr round, which according to the box puts out around 1190fps, what would the velocity be coming out of my Colt AR-9? Beretta CX4 Storm? What about other calibers - 45ACP, etc.?

What if the barrel was 12, 16, or 20 inches? I'm assuming the law of diminishing returns to a factor would kick in and there would be a point where additional barrel length/more twist would no longer provide increased velocity. Can you mathematically approximate the rate of change over barrel length?

Yes, my wife and I have discussions like this and on a host of other topics. We're two physics/math/other sciences junkies.

Thanks in advance,

CG

 

[jek]

rule of thumb is 20-30 fps for each inch of barrel. check out this site: www.ballisticsbytheinch.com
Interesting study of various calibers.

 

[strangenh]

Generally, the added velocity is comparable to handgun velocities of other rounds such ranges DO allow in handguns, with similar mass. 9x19 gains only 100-200fps from an extra 11" of barrel from 5->11", making the 9x19 out of a carbine comparable to .357Sig out of a 5" barrel handgun.

.357mag is different, since rounds often gain 400fps going from a 5" to 16" barrel, getting into the lower end of rifle-round velocities.

See ballistics by the inch, link in jek's post above.

The indoor ranges I've used simply ask what we're shooting, and are generally OK with 9x19 (and most have been with .357mag).

 

[Brewer]

This is why I love NES. Answers to questions I didn't think to ask, but now I'm learning.

 

[jek]

Another thing to consider is what test barrel length did the quoted fps on the ammo box come from. For example, I recently asked Winchester, CCI, and Hornady what test barrel length was used for specific .22magnum ammo. The answer was 20", 24", and 24", respectively. PPU lists their ballistic data online including barrel lengths.

 

[citoriguy]

Interesting - thanks for the feedback, all.

rule of thumb is 20-30 fps for each inch of barrel. check out this site: www.ballisticsbytheinch.com
Interesting study of various calibers.

Bookmarked that site. Pretty cool.

 

[citoriguy]

Another thing to consider is what test barrel length did the quoted fps on the ammo box come from. For example, I recently asked Winchester, CCI, and Hornady what test barrel length was used for specific .22magnum ammo. The answer was 20", 24", and 24", respectively. PPU lists their ballistic data online including barrel lengths.

Interesting about PPU - I didn't know that. . I expected there to be variance in testing.

 

[whacko]

My clubs indoor backstop will handle PCc velocities with zero problems. It'll actually handle 50bmg with no issues. We still limit handguns to 44 magnum though because of noise. Both the handgun and archery indoor ranges are next to each other with a wall that is not sound proof. Its cement between them but the doors are not sound proof. anything above 44 mag and use of rifles indoors noise would require ear pro on the archery range. So we're limited to 44 magnum handguns in there.

As far as pcc use indoors......its a no go at this point......something I think we need to reconsider though as they'd be actually quieter than most handguns. It's been brought up before but......video has no way to tell if someone's shooting a 9mm ar or an actual 5.56 ar.

 

[Bob P]

My clubs indoor backstop will handle PCc velocities with zero problems. It'll actually handle 50bmg with no issues. We still limit handguns to 44 magnum though because of noise. Both the handgun and archery indoor ranges are next to each other with a wall that is not sound proof. Its cement between them but the doors are not sound proof. anything above 44 mag and use of rifles indoors noise would require ear pro on the archery range. So we're limited to 44 magnum handguns in there.

As far as pcc use indoors......its a no go at this point......something I think we need to reconsider though as they'd be actually quieter than most handguns. It's been brought up before but......video has no way to tell if someone's shooting a 9mm ar or an actual 5.56 ar.

The magazine gives it away

 

[NavelOfficer]

I'd pretty much echo all that's been posted already with one addition... frangible bullets?
Some indoor ranges allow high-power rifle calibers with frangible bullets, so pistol calibers with frangibles would be allowed easily, I'd think. You'll have to ask around.

 

[whacko]

The magazine gives it away

Roger that...when your standing next to it. Our system ain't exactly HD.

I'm actually in favor of letting pcc on the indoor range just giving the reasons the bod used to reject it.

 

[T-Unit]

If they allow rifle shooting in the range, then PCC should be no problem. If it's a handgun only indoor range and they allow all handguns, including .500 Mag revolvers, then there's no reason a PCC can't be shot there, especially if it's 9mm, .40, or .45. If it's a lever action in .357 or .44 Mag... that's different.

I have the same issue at my range when shooting a 10 inch 9mm AR pistol on the pistol range. They all think it's gonna damage the plates cuz "so much more power!" and then I look over and see somebody shooting an 8 inch .357 and they're fine with that.

 

[citoriguy]

We’re limited to .45ACP at my indoor range, which I’m good with as that’s my max. No rifles inside either. Outdoors there's more flexibility.

Like I said, it was more curiosity than anything else.

 

[Matt_SERE]

We’re limited to .45ACP at my indoor range, which I’m good with as that’s my max. No rifles inside either. Outdoors there's more flexibility.

Like I said, it was more curiosity than anything else.

Does the club have a chronograph you can use?

 

[Arlo39]

Hot Brass in West Springfield allows PCC’s. The range is rated to 50BMG.

 

[92G]

the only problem w a PCC on pistol range is that folks may see someone shooting a PCC and think its ok to shoot their rifle calibers. it can be confusing as some see a long gun and assume rifle must be ok. other than this a PCC offers no real difference to a backstop or any safe target such as AR500 steel.

 

[citoriguy]

Does the club have a chronograph you can use?

Not that I’m aware of. Truth be told, I haven’t asked anyone in leadership.

the only problem w a PCC on pistol range is that folks may see someone shooting a PCC and think its ok to shoot their rifle calibers. it can be confusing as some see a long gun and assume rifle must be ok. other than this a PCC offers no real difference to a backstop or any safe target such as AR500 steel.

That’s what I was thinking. Someone sees a PCC and then they try to fire their .30-06 indoors!

 

[M1911]

the only problem w a PCC on pistol range is that folks may see someone shooting a PCC and think its ok to shoot their rifle calibers.

This is a very real issue, sadly.

 

[DarthRevan]

I’m an engineer, these must be right.
Projectile motion equations are fairly plug and play, but I’m sure a physicist will tell me I’m missing something.

 

[whacko]

This is a very real issue, sadly.

It definitely is. Many clubs are loaded with members that shoot 2-3 times a year.....don't give a f*** about helping out.....and don't pay attention to the range rules. My club has a few instances a year where folks are reported for safety and rule violations and those folks are predominantly members that rarely shoot at the club. Their excuses are generally "I didn't know". Which is bullshit because each year they sign a renewal form that states "I have read and understand the range rules".

Our last incident was a guy that was reported for leaving rifles on the benches facing parallel to the firing line rather than in the racks. Additionally his guest muzzle swept another member with an ar and his guests did not sign waivers. He was given the opportunity of course to report to the board or send a letter to the board explaining his actions. His letter was lengthy......mostly bitching about the member that reported him and that nothing was unsafe because he's a police officer and a marksmanship instructor for the pd. Not one remark that he takes responsibility for the rule violations. The board voted that he has to attend a member orientation before his card gets turned back on for range access. All of the rule violations are on video.....

This is a constant problem at the club. Folks that don't shoot often and refuse to pay attention to the range rules.

As much as we would all love to keep things pretty open and allow for intelligent adherence to rules......we do need to consider the members that are just plain f***ing stupid.

 

[M1911]

I was part of a club’s leadership for about a dozen years. I saw the same sort of things that whacko describes.

 

[milktree]

This is a very real issue, sadly.

So, people who see others shooting .22 lever guns or .22 ARs are smart enough to follow "rifles are OK, so long as they're .22", but not smart enough to follow, "pistol caliber rifles are OK"?

PCCs are louder than .22s, but a quieter than handguns, and a *f***ton* quieter than a rifle caliber rifle.

 

[TomMontana]

What's the allure of shooting rifles or PCCs indoors? It's loud and most indoor ranges avg around 50 ft. Seems lame to shoot paper indoor with a rifle/PCC at that distance. Plus it's awkward to handle a long gun in the confines of an indoor lane. If you live in the Northeast where there are plenty of outdoor ranges, why not just wait till it's warmer and shoot outside?

 

[milktree]

What's the allure of shooting rifles or PCCs indoors? It's loud and most indoor ranges avg around 50 ft. Seems lame to shoot paper indoor with a rifle/PCC at that distance. Plus it's awkward to handle a long gun in the confines of an indoor lane. If you live in the Northeast where there are plenty of outdoor ranges, why not just wait till it's warmer and shoot outside?

1) PCC aren't loud, they're quieter than the equivalent caliber handgun.
2) Indoor ranges typically have target retrieval systems, I don't know of any outdoor ranges that do.
3) A lot of outdoor ranges have minimum distances that are longer than some PCC shooters want to shoot. A lot of IDPA style PCC matches have quite short range targets, so getting a 21' zero isn't an unreasonable thing to want.
4) Awkward? I don't know why you'd say that. What the hell do you do outside that you can't do inside?

 

[drgrant]

What's the allure of shooting rifles or PCCs indoors? It's loud and most indoor ranges avg around 50 ft. Seems lame to shoot paper indoor with a rifle/PCC at that distance.

There's a big difference between most rifles and PCCs in terms of noise. a PCC isn't any louder than a handgun, quieter actually.

-Mike

 

[jek]

What's the allure of shooting rifles or PCCs indoors? It's loud and most indoor ranges avg around 50 ft. Seems lame to shoot paper indoor with a rifle/PCC at that distance. Plus it's awkward to handle a long gun in the confines of an indoor lane.

It's nice to have when you make some winter acquisitions, or want to play around with different reloads. I recently did a test at my club in an attempt to qualify magnum ammo and PC rifles. I shot .357 magnum out of a revolver and an Henry. The Henry seemed much quieter than the revolver. Also shot some .45 Colt from a revolver and Rossi rifle. Again, the rifle seemed much quieter. It was not awkward at all shooting any of the PC rifles.

BTW, I shot some S&W 500 and .44 magnums. I wore plugs and headphones (NRR 32 and 30, respectively) for those, and glad I did.

 

[strangenh]

Agree with the above. I've started new shooters off with lever-action PCCs. It's a great confidence builder and skips past that nervous anticipation going from 22 to "a real caliber" that seems to affect a lot of new shooters.

 

[92G]

out of a lever action, the velocites achieved with 357 magnum are incredible. a hot 125gr projectile can get upwards of 2000 ft/s. however i doubt most of the expanding projectiles will behave properly at such velocities.

 

[Buck F]

American Firearms School in North Attleboro allows PCCs on their indoor pistol ranges. The Fudds at Independent Sportmen (outdoor club in Foxboro) won’t allow PCCs on the pistol range, not because of any ballistic or safety considerations but because it gives the wrong impression. They allow .22 LR cal rifles (incl black semi rifles) and black powder rifles on the pistol range, but not PCCs because it might give people the wrong idea.

 

[milktree]

American Firearms School in North Attleboro allows PCCs on their indoor pistol ranges. The Fudds at Independent Sportmen (outdoor club in Foxboro) won’t allow PCCs on the pistol range, not because of any ballistic or safety considerations but because it gives the wrong impression. They allow .22 LR cal rifles and black powder rifles on the pistol range, but not PCCs because it might give people the wrong idea

"wrong idea" being.....

Oh! "PCCs look scary!"

Ugh... I'm so sick of people using "give people the wrong idea" as a justification for restricting stuff when they're not able to actually articulate what "the wrong idea" is. That, of course, makes it impossible to prove to them they're full of crap.