1. If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

  2. Dismiss Notice

PCCs & Indoor Ranges:

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by citoriguy, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    595
    Location:
    PRM
    Hi all - I hope everyone's having a great weekend. I figured this would be a good question, given the knowledge base we have here, about bullet velocity. My wife and I were talking about this and I realized I had no idea of what the answer could be.

    It's my understanding that PCCs are generally, if not mostly, (all maybe?) not allowed at indoor ranges given the increased velocity and added wear on most backstops. Our question is simply this - what's the velocity delta, generally speaking, between a pistol and a PCC? If I used my Glock 19 with Winchester White Box 115gr round, which according to the box puts out around 1190fps, what would the velocity be coming out of my Colt AR-9? Beretta CX4 Storm? What about other calibers - 45ACP, etc.?

    What if the barrel was 12, 16, or 20 inches? I'm assuming the law of diminishing returns to a factor would kick in and there would be a point where additional barrel length/more twist would no longer provide increased velocity. Can you mathematically approximate the rate of change over barrel length?

    Yes, my wife and I have discussions like this and on a host of other topics. We're two physics/math/other sciences junkies.

    Thanks in advance,

    CG
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019

  2. jek

    jek NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    343
    Location:
    next to the range in Worcester County
    rule of thumb is 20-30 fps for each inch of barrel. check out this site: www.ballisticsbytheinch.com
    Interesting study of various calibers.
     
  3. strangenh

    strangenh NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    6,119
    Likes Received:
    1,204
    Location:
    NH
    Generally, the added velocity is comparable to handgun velocities of other rounds such ranges DO allow in handguns, with similar mass. 9x19 gains only 100-200fps from an extra 11" of barrel from 5->11", making the 9x19 out of a carbine comparable to .357Sig out of a 5" barrel handgun.

    .357mag is different, since rounds often gain 400fps going from a 5" to 16" barrel, getting into the lower end of rifle-round velocities.

    See ballistics by the inch, link in jek's post above.

    The indoor ranges I've used simply ask what we're shooting, and are generally OK with 9x19 (and most have been with .357mag).
     
    DarthRevan, jek and Brewer like this.
  4. Brewer

    Brewer NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Location:
    Erebor refugee in Mass
    This is why I love NES. Answers to questions I didn't think to ask, but now I'm learning.
     
  5. jek

    jek NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    343
    Location:
    next to the range in Worcester County
    Another thing to consider is what test barrel length did the quoted fps on the ammo box come from. For example, I recently asked Winchester, CCI, and Hornady what test barrel length was used for specific .22magnum ammo. The answer was 20", 24", and 24", respectively. PPU lists their ballistic data online including barrel lengths.
     
  6. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    595
    Location:
    PRM
    Interesting - thanks for the feedback, all.

    Bookmarked that site. Pretty cool.
     
  7. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    595
    Location:
    PRM
    Interesting about PPU - I didn't know that. . I expected there to be variance in testing.
     
  8. whacko

    whacko

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,001
    Likes Received:
    4,424
    My clubs indoor backstop will handle PCc velocities with zero problems. It'll actually handle 50bmg with no issues. We still limit handguns to 44 magnum though because of noise. Both the handgun and archery indoor ranges are next to each other with a wall that is not sound proof. Its cement between them but the doors are not sound proof. anything above 44 mag and use of rifles indoors noise would require ear pro on the archery range. So we're limited to 44 magnum handguns in there.

    As far as pcc use indoors......its a no go at this point......something I think we need to reconsider though as they'd be actually quieter than most handguns. It's been brought up before but......video has no way to tell if someone's shooting a 9mm ar or an actual 5.56 ar.
     
    DPR likes this.
  9. Bob P

    Bob P NES Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2008
    Messages:
    10,931
    Likes Received:
    2,514
    Location:
    Texas
    The magazine gives it away
     
    andrew1220 and xjma99 like this.
  10. NavelOfficer

    NavelOfficer

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    SE CT
    I'd pretty much echo all that's been posted already with one addition... frangible bullets?
    Some indoor ranges allow high-power rifle calibers with frangible bullets, so pistol calibers with frangibles would be allowed easily, I'd think. You'll have to ask around.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. whacko

    whacko

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,001
    Likes Received:
    4,424
    Roger that...when your standing next to it. Our system ain't exactly HD.

    I'm actually in favor of letting pcc on the indoor range just giving the reasons the bod used to reject it.
     
    Bob P likes this.
  12. T-Unit

    T-Unit

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,145
    Likes Received:
    654
    If they allow rifle shooting in the range, then PCC should be no problem. If it's a handgun only indoor range and they allow all handguns, including .500 Mag revolvers, then there's no reason a PCC can't be shot there, especially if it's 9mm, .40, or .45. If it's a lever action in .357 or .44 Mag... that's different.

    I have the same issue at my range when shooting a 10 inch 9mm AR pistol on the pistol range. They all think it's gonna damage the plates cuz "so much more power!" and then I look over and see somebody shooting an 8 inch .357 and they're fine with that.
     
    buckfarack likes this.
  13. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    595
    Location:
    PRM
    We’re limited to .45ACP at my indoor range, which I’m good with as that’s my max. No rifles inside either. Outdoors there's more flexibility.

    Like I said, it was more curiosity than anything else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  14. SERE

    SERE NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    2,960
    Location:
    North of Boston
    Does the club have a chronograph you can use?
     
  15. Arlo39

    Arlo39

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    Springfield
    Hot Brass in West Springfield allows PCC’s. The range is rated to 50BMG.
     
  16. Squib308

    Squib308 NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    7,202
    Likes Received:
    3,114
    Location:
    Pangea
    the only problem w a PCC on pistol range is that folks may see someone shooting a PCC and think its ok to shoot their rifle calibers. it can be confusing as some see a long gun and assume rifle must be ok. other than this a PCC offers no real difference to a backstop or any safe target such as AR500 steel.
     
  17. citoriguy

    citoriguy NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    980
    Likes Received:
    595
    Location:
    PRM
    Not that I’m aware of. Truth be told, I haven’t asked anyone in leadership.

    That’s what I was thinking. Someone sees a PCC and then they try to fire their .30-06 indoors!
     
  18. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    38,761
    Likes Received:
    6,422
    Location:
    Near Framingham
    This is a very real issue, sadly.
     
    eisenhow likes this.
  19. DarthRevan

    DarthRevan Instructor NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    5,095
    Likes Received:
    2,254
    Location:
    Lynn, MA
    I’m an engineer, these must be right. [rolleyes]
    Projectile motion equations are fairly plug and play, but I’m sure a physicist will tell me I’m missing something.
    B84F2B40-7F40-4738-A691-9566C7B9EDFD.jpeg
     
    whatluck and citoriguy like this.
  20. whacko

    whacko

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    9,001
    Likes Received:
    4,424
    It definitely is. Many clubs are loaded with members that shoot 2-3 times a year.....don't give a f*** about helping out.....and don't pay attention to the range rules. My club has a few instances a year where folks are reported for safety and rule violations and those folks are predominantly members that rarely shoot at the club. Their excuses are generally "I didn't know". Which is bullshit because each year they sign a renewal form that states "I have read and understand the range rules".

    Our last incident was a guy that was reported for leaving rifles on the benches facing parallel to the firing line rather than in the racks. Additionally his guest muzzle swept another member with an ar and his guests did not sign waivers. He was given the opportunity of course to report to the board or send a letter to the board explaining his actions. His letter was lengthy......mostly bitching about the member that reported him and that nothing was unsafe because he's a police officer and a marksmanship instructor for the pd. Not one remark that he takes responsibility for the rule violations. The board voted that he has to attend a member orientation before his card gets turned back on for range access. All of the rule violations are on video.....

    This is a constant problem at the club. Folks that don't shoot often and refuse to pay attention to the range rules.

    As much as we would all love to keep things pretty open and allow for intelligent adherence to rules......we do need to consider the members that are just plain f***ing stupid.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  21. M1911

    M1911 Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    38,761
    Likes Received:
    6,422
    Location:
    Near Framingham
    I was part of a club’s leadership for about a dozen years. I saw the same sort of things that whacko describes.
     
  22. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,074
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    So, people who see others shooting .22 lever guns or .22 ARs are smart enough to follow "rifles are OK, so long as they're .22", but not smart enough to follow, "pistol caliber rifles are OK"?

    PCCs are louder than .22s, but a quieter than handguns, and a *f***ton* quieter than a rifle caliber rifle.
     
    buckfarack likes this.
  23. TomMontana

    TomMontana NES Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,560
    Likes Received:
    946
    Location:
    Crossroads of RI & South Shore, MA
    What's the allure of shooting rifles or PCCs indoors? It's loud and most indoor ranges avg around 50 ft. Seems lame to shoot paper indoor with a rifle/PCC at that distance. Plus it's awkward to handle a long gun in the confines of an indoor lane. If you live in the Northeast where there are plenty of outdoor ranges, why not just wait till it's warmer and shoot outside?
     
  24. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,074
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    1) PCC aren't loud, they're quieter than the equivalent caliber handgun.
    2) Indoor ranges typically have target retrieval systems, I don't know of any outdoor ranges that do.
    3) A lot of outdoor ranges have minimum distances that are longer than some PCC shooters want to shoot. A lot of IDPA style PCC matches have quite short range targets, so getting a 21' zero isn't an unreasonable thing to want.
    4) Awkward? I don't know why you'd say that. What the hell do you do outside that you can't do inside?
     
    1919FAN, strangenh and drgrant like this.
  25. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    65,617
    Likes Received:
    21,237
    There's a big difference between most rifles and PCCs in terms of noise. a PCC isn't any louder than a handgun, quieter actually.

    -Mike
     
    amm5061, 1919FAN, jek and 2 others like this.
  26. jek

    jek NES Life Member NES Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    343
    Location:
    next to the range in Worcester County
    It's nice to have when you make some winter acquisitions, or want to play around with different reloads. I recently did a test at my club in an attempt to qualify magnum ammo and PC rifles. I shot .357 magnum out of a revolver and an Henry. The Henry seemed much quieter than the revolver. Also shot some .45 Colt from a revolver and Rossi rifle. Again, the rifle seemed much quieter. It was not awkward at all shooting any of the PC rifles.

    BTW, I shot some S&W 500 and .44 magnums. I wore plugs and headphones (NRR 32 and 30, respectively) for those, and glad I did.
     
    whacko and drgrant like this.
  27. strangenh

    strangenh NES Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    6,119
    Likes Received:
    1,204
    Location:
    NH
    Agree with the above. I've started new shooters off with lever-action PCCs. It's a great confidence builder and skips past that nervous anticipation going from 22 to "a real caliber" that seems to affect a lot of new shooters.
     
  28. Squib308

    Squib308 NES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    7,202
    Likes Received:
    3,114
    Location:
    Pangea
    out of a lever action, the velocites achieved with 357 magnum are incredible. a hot 125gr projectile can get upwards of 2000 ft/s. however i doubt most of the expanding projectiles will behave properly at such velocities.
     
  29. buckfarack

    buckfarack NES Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    1,404
    Likes Received:
    1,303
    Location:
    SE MA
    American Firearms School in North Attleboro allows PCCs on their indoor pistol ranges. The Fudds at Independent Sportmen (outdoor club in Foxboro) won’t allow PCCs on the pistol range, not because of any ballistic or safety considerations but because it gives the wrong impression. They allow .22 LR cal rifles (incl black semi rifles) and black powder rifles on the pistol range, but not PCCs because it might give people the wrong idea.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
    ontrgt808 and milktree like this.
  30. milktree

    milktree NES Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    4,074
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    "wrong idea" being.....

    Oh! "PCCs look scary!"

    Ugh... I'm so sick of people using "give people the wrong idea" as a justification for restricting stuff when they're not able to actually articulate what "the wrong idea" is. That, of course, makes it impossible to prove to them they're full of crap.
     
    buckfarack likes this.

Share This Page