Out of state FFL Non resident CCP

[DrEvil]

Hey NES, I was wondering if being an FFL (07) would classify for an unrestricted LTC in the state of Massachusetts. I plan on doing shows and purchasing in the state, and want to be able to protect myself and my inventory during travel to the state.

Has anyone covered this particular combo in the past?

 

[drgrant]

How are you going to do a gun show in MA without an MA dealers license? If you can get that getting the rest of the stuff should be pretty easy.

-Mike

 

[one-eyed Jack]

How are you going to do a gun show in MA without an MA dealers license? If you can get that getting the rest of the stuff should be pretty easy.

-Mike

Looks like he's a out of state FFL. If so, no Ma dealers license for him. Jack.

 

[drgrant]

Looks like he's a out of state FFL. If so, no Ma dealers license for him. Jack.

That's what I was wondering, he'd either have to have an alternate presence in MA of some sort.

-Mike

 

[Rob Boudrie]

This simple answer to the original question is no. No form of FFL doubles as a carry permit in MA, though it might be used to convince he FRB to issue an unrestricted LTC.

 

[DrEvil]

I was not intending that it doubled as a CCP, I was asking if it added leverage to getting an unrestricted CCP.

The FFL allows me to purchase anywhere in the CONUS, So I figured since MA is my neighbor, I could attend and purchase. Reselling would be a different story as I don't really want to get into too many MA headaches.

I already have a migraine reading over the annual visits to FRB to renew a CCP....

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I was not intending that it doubled as a CCP, I was asking if it added leverage to getting an unrestricted CCP.

Almost certainly.

Non-resident permits are handled via in-person interview in Chelsea, MA and renewed annually. Having a documented reason will be a big help in getting the unrestricted version.

Just make sure you have answers to questions like "what business will you be doing in MA without a MA dealers license?".

 

[JAD]

How are you going to do a gun show in MA without an MA dealers license? If you can get that getting the rest of the stuff should be pretty easy.

-Mike

That's not just a Mass issue but also a federal one. With the exception of curio and relic firearms to other licensees, out of state FFLs can't transfer any firearms (other than antiques) at gun-shows outside of their state of licensure. They can exhibit and take orders but can't even ship until returning to their "home state." (federal law) I can think of a number of current or former Connecticut FFLs that do (or used to do) that at Mass gunshows.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I was not intending that it doubled as a CCP, I was asking if it added leverage to getting an unrestricted CCP.

The FFL allows me to purchase anywhere in the CONUS, So I figured since MA is my neighbor, I could attend and purchase. Reselling would be a different story as I don't really want to get into too many MA headaches.

I already have a migraine reading over the annual visits to FRB to renew a CCP....

With your FFL you can buy whatever you want. Just get the stuff shipped to your FFL address. Jack.

 

[dcmdon]

This has never come up in my time holding an 07 but I was told that I could buy in person and take possession in any state, as long as it was legal for me to possess the firearm in that state.

I don't know if this is correct.

Jack, what do you think?

 

[one-eyed Jack]

This has never come up in my time holding an 07 but I was told that I could buy in person and take possession in any state, as long as it was legal for me to possess the firearm in that state.

I don't know if this is correct.

Jack, what do you think?

Sounds good to me. With the FFL you can purchase a Title 1 firearm from any individual, distributer or manufacturer in the USA. NFA stuff has different rules. But, the FFL does not exempt you from possession and transportation requirements. Jack.

 

[dcmdon]

the FFL does not exempt you from possession and transportation requirements. Jack.

Yup, the ATF inspector was very very clear on that when we were having that discussion. But then she added that with FOPA, and my NH, MA, CT, and FL carry permits, unless I stopped in NY, NJ, or DC to visit an old friend, I'd be fine.

This is kind of tangential but I have specifically driven sedans for the last 10 years because of the legal and physical protection they give me when transporting firearms.

Don

 

[drgrant]

This is kind of tangential but I have specifically driven sedans for the last 10 years because of the legal and physical protection they give me when transporting firearms.

Don

Why wouldn't a locked container inside a truck bed accomplish the same thing? For example if I had a pickup truck I'd have a huge toolbox in the bed that locked that I'd keep guns in, etc. They're not going to open that without a warrant unless they go full retard... not any different than a car trunk.

-Mike

 

[dcmdon]

Why wouldn't a locked container inside a truck bed accomplish the same thing? For example if I had a pickup truck I'd have a huge toolbox in the bed that locked that I'd keep guns in, etc. They're not going to open that without a warrant unless they go full retard... not any different than a car trunk.

-Mike

Agreed. I don't want to drive a pickup truck. If you want to drive a car (and that includes SUV owners) a sedan or truck with a locked box in the bed provides easy protecton.

The only ding against truck bed boxes is that thieves expect there to be readily salable tools in them. Every once in a while you hear about one being forced open by a scumbag. I don't ever hear of trunks being crowbar'd opens.

But even still a truck bed box is a great solution if you drive a pickup.

 

[warwickben]

Agreed. I don't want to drive a pickup truck. If you want to drive a car (and that includes SUV owners) a sedan or truck with a locked box in the bed provides easy protecton.

The only ding against truck bed boxes is that thieves expect there to be readily salable tools in them. Every once in a while you hear about one being forced open by a scumbag. I don't ever hear of trunks being crowbar'd opens.

But even still a truck bed box is a great solution if you drive a pickup.

My buddy has had the tool box stollen from his work truck . You could see they pried on it so had the bolts tore Thorpe the sheet metal .

We then welded a steel job box to the bed of his truck and at one point some one tried to steal that .

 

[DrEvil]

Good to hear.

My other question and this may need a separate post is will they deny me based on 2 "criminal " motor vehicle charges that happened in the past? Of should I just cut my losses and stay in my free state with my evil guns?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Good to hear.

My other question and this may need a separate post is will they deny me based on 2 "criminal " motor vehicle charges that happened in the past? Of should I just cut my losses and stay in my free state with my evil guns?

The dispositions mean more than the charges in determining statutorily DQ'd people. Suitability is another issue.

 

[dcmdon]

Len - would it be fair to say that the whole suitability is a bit less arbitrary at the state police level that a non-resident applies to?

Dr Evil - what were the charges and when did it happen? Are we talking reckless driving or DUI or what?

Len - for a non-res, is the litmus test whether its a felony in your home state or a felony in MA?

Don

 

[browncoat]

Len - would it be fair to say that the whole suitability is a bit less arbitrary at the state police level that a non-resident applies to?

Dr Evil - what were the charges and when did it happen? Are we talking reckless driving or DUI or what?

Len - for a non-res, is the litmus test whether its a felony in your home state or a felony in MA?

Don

Is a DUI an automatic disqualifier even if it happened in a different state?

 

[dcmdon]

That's what I don't know.

If you are a MA resident and get a DUI in another state, I believe the offense is still a disqualifying offense.

If you are a NH resident and have a DUI in NH, I don't know if it would disqualify you from a non-res LTC in MA. Hoping Len will join in here. He knows.

Don

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That's what I don't know.

If you are a MA resident and get a DUI in another state, I believe the offense is still a disqualifying offense.

If you are a NH resident and have a DUI in NH, I don't know if it would disqualify you from a non-res LTC in MA. Hoping Len will join in here. He knows.

Don

An out of state DUI is NOT a statutory disqualifier for a MA LTC unless it bears a potential sentence in excess of 2 years, however, it can be used to deny based on suitability. I am not aware of any state in which the first OUI sentence for a no-injury OUI exceeds 2 years other than MA.

The MA OUI (after a certain date around 1994) is a disqualifier in MA because it carries a potential sentence of 2.5 years. 18 USC 922g defines a felony as something called a felony by the state, or any crime for which the potential sentence exceeds 2 years (excepting anti trust and restraing of trade violations). This makes a MA OUI a criminal disqualfiier at both the state and federal level.

First offense OUIs without property damage on injury are generally disposed a CWOF (continuance wiohtout a finding), which is treated as a guilty verdict for the purpose of insurance rating, subsequence offense sentence enhancement, and CDL licensing, but is not a statutory disqualifier at the state or federal level.

 

[dcmdon]

Thanks Rob.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Len - would it be fair to say that the whole suitability is a bit less arbitrary at the state police level that a non-resident applies to?

Dr Evil - what were the charges and when did it happen? Are we talking reckless driving or DUI or what?

Len - for a non-res, is the litmus test whether its a felony in your home state or a felony in MA?

Don

Yes, FRB is less likely to gig someone on "suitability" than many of the chiefs/LOs in MA.

The test is always what the particular penalty COULD HAVE BEEN in the jurisdiction it occurred in at the time it occurred.

 

[mark056]

Len - would it be fair to say that the whole suitability is a bit less arbitrary at the state police level that a non-resident applies to? Dr Evil - what were the charges and when did it happen? Are we talking reckless driving or DUI or what? Len - for a non-res, is the litmus test whether its a felony in your home state or a felony in MA? Don

The MSP has nothing to do with Non Res MA LTC. A common misconception based on how the law is worded. De jure yes but De facto the determination and administration is conducted by the FRB. Although you have a Mass connection, your strong suit appears to be Connecticut and its environs and the ins and outs of corporate high tech America (certainly not the US Military).

Your question was already answered, but the offense has to do with sentence length. If littering carried a penalty in some jurisdiction of a maximum potential sentence of 2.5 years, then you would be disqualified. The nature of the offense is immaterial.

 

[JAD]

An out of state DUI is NOT a statutory disqualifier for a MA LTC unless it bears a potential sentence in excess of 2 years, however, it can be used to deny based on suitability. I am not aware of any state in which the first OUI sentence for a no-injury OUI exceeds 2 years other than MA.

The MA OUI (after a certain date around 1994) is a disqualifier in MA because it carries a potential sentence of 2.5 years. 18 USC 922g defines a felony as something called a felony by the state, or any crime for which the potential sentence exceeds 2 years (excepting anti trust and restraing of trade violations). This makes a MA OUI a criminal disqualfiier at both the state and federal level.

....

A DUI (or any other violation of law) punishable by more than 1 year but not more than 2 years is disqualifying under federal law unless the charge is identified by state law as a misdemeanor. An example would be conviction of 2d offense DUI from Connecticut. 2d Offense DUI, if properly charged, is punishable by up to two years imprisonment. Because Connecticut law defines a felony as "An offense for which a person may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment in excess of one year...." (CGS 53a-25(a)) [DUI is prohibited by CGS 14-227a. Title 14 is the motor vehicle code and some people might attempt to claim that DUI (2d offense) is not an unclassified felony because CGS 53a-24 excludes motor vehicle violations from the meaning of the term offense, which is a term of art. However, since DUI (2d offense) is punishable by more than one year and is not statutorily designated as misdemeanor, it automatically meets the federal definition of a felony described as a prohibiting condition in the gun control act, making that semantic irrelevant]

 

[JAD]

Yes, FRB is less likely to gig someone on "suitability" than many of the chiefs/LOs in MA.

The test is always what the particular penalty COULD HAVE BEEN in the jurisdiction it occurred in at the time it occurred.

While I'm not sure exactly what their litmus test is for making a suitability determination, FRB does consider that information in deciding whether or not to grant a non-resident an LTC. Based on what I've been told by them, history that needs to be reviewed can complicate and add time to the license processing timeline. Not having a record (and not wanting to acquire one to find out), I can't say exactly how that works- but considering how formulaic their process is I assume that they try to avoid arbitrary decision making.

 

[JAD]

The MSP has nothing to do with Non Res MA LTC. A common misconception based on how the law is worded. De jure yes but De facto the determination and administration is conducted by the FRB. Although you have a Mass connection, your strong suit appears to be Connecticut and its environs and the ins and outs of corporate high tech America (certainly not the US Military).

Your question was already answered, but the offense has to do with sentence length. If littering carried a penalty in some jurisdiction of a maximum potential sentence of 2.5 years, then you would be disqualified. The nature of the offense is immaterial.

Don was making two separate points with his post, which you are mistakenly reading as a singular point-

(1) He was inquiring as to suitability in two of three sentences. In one sentence he was asking Len for information about FRB's application of the suitability clause. In the other he was trying to get the OP to divulge information about his record and the nature of offenses.

Unless Don as a Magic 8 ball or insight with FRB that we don't know about, I doubt he can give insight into their suitability determination process for persons with a history. Len may have knowledge. Maybe somebody ahs had experience.

(2) His other question was about whether or not Mass. would interpret an out-of state misdemeanor (or violation of law that has the effect of being a misdemeanor) as a felony because of how such behavior is classified in the Commonwealth.
Though it does not sound reasonable, I believe this point referenced a very reasonable question. In at least one instance, a shall issue state (not Mass) denied an applicant for an out-of-state misdemeanor conviction on the basis that the underlying conduct would have been felonious in that state, without lawful justification. Mass has suitability- so they don't need stupid games like that.

Obviously, one of his statements is wrong- re. Mass residents and an out of state DUI- which could be a suitability issue but not a per-se disqualifier, unless their out of state conviction had the effect of being a felony in that state.

 

[DrEvil]

Len - would it be fair to say that the whole suitability is a bit less arbitrary at the state police level that a non-resident applies to?

Dr Evil - what were the charges and when did it happen? Are we talking reckless driving or DUI or what?

Len - for a non-res, is the litmus test whether its a felony in your home state or a felony in MA?

Don

It was failure to stop, and driving to endanger. Happened about 15 years ago, not one of my finer moments for sure.

I got 1 year suspended sentence, loss of license for 1 year. I might have the paperwork somewhere, but like I said, My FFL is 07/02 and I have a valid LTC in NH, so I would hate to go down this road where the risk outweighs the gain. LTC in MA is only useful to me if its not going to cause more issues with any other government entity... read.. BATF.

 

[DrEvil]

So, as it turns out, the ATF has held up my FFL application due to the above. I do not have a copy of my CORI or a copy of the official charges. Will traffic charges that are marked "Criminal" be considered misdemeanor charges? I have been delayed through NICS before, but always thought it was due to a really bad person with a similar name. Turns out, it is from some mistakes I made 15 years ago.

 

[JAD]

So, as it turns out, the ATF has held up my FFL application due to the above. I do not have a copy of my CORI or a copy of the official charges. Will traffic charges that are marked "Criminal" be considered misdemeanor charges? I have been delayed through NICS before, but always thought it was due to a really bad person with a similar name. Turns out, it is from some mistakes I made 15 years ago.

They could be misdemeanors or felonies, or misdemeanors with the effect of felonies depending on the state-law classification of the offense where the occurred and federal law.

One thing that you need to keep in mind is that Massachusetts law defines the terms felony and misdemeanor differently than those terms are used with respect to federal firearms law.

c. 274 s. 1 says

A crime punishable by death or imprisonment in the state prison is a felony. All other crimes are misdemeanors.

(The significance of the state prison wording is that pursuant to c. 279 s. 6, all male sentences longer than 2 1/2 years are to be served in state prison, except that any woman sentenced to house of correction/jail or prison may be committed to MCI Framingham to serve their sentence c.279 s. 16- though that section does not change the nature of a sentence from being house of correction sentence to a prison sentence, but rather defines where the sentence may be served, particularly since women with <2 1/2 year sentences may also be committed to jail/house of correction (c.279 s. 19).)

Examples:

Mutilating a Parking Ticket (c. 90 s.20D) is an example misdemeanor motor vehicle violation, and is classified as such on the master crime list, which does not have the effect of being a felony with regard to federal firearms law. A person found guilty of mutilating a parking ticket could be sentenced for up to 1 month house of correction.

OUI 1st or 2d offense (both violations of MGL c. 90 s.24(1)(a)(1) with different sentencing schedules but the same max) are classified by Massachusetts law as a misdemeanor but is punishable by up to 2 1/2 years House of Correction which under federal firearms law means that such conviction has the effect of being a felony since it is (1) punishable by more than 1 year imprisonment and (2) is not defined by state law as a misdemeanor punishable by two years or less.

OUI 3d offense (and 4th, 5th.) (a violation of the same section referenced above..again with increasing sentencing schedules, but the same 5 year state prison max) are all felonies, are all described as such on the master crime list, and are all punishable by up to five years state prison.