Old Folks And (long) Generator Question...

[center442]

I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

Background: My MIL and her companion (let's call them Trish and Harry) are both in their early 80's. They are still pretty independent and live in Trish's home. Their basement has a water problem and they have a sump pump to keep things dry. It has to run several times an hour. During the recent storm, they lost power for 24+ hours. During that time Trish and Harry stayed up all night bailing water so the basement wouldn't flood. I just found out about it today. Trish said they didn't call for help because they didn't want to "bother us." Trish has now taken it into her mind to get a generator. At first, I thought she just wanted a small one to run the sump pump, but she told my wife she would also like to have power to the fridge and a few lights. I was thinking along the lines of a small, easy to carry genny that Harry could handle, but now we're into a medium/large generator and the related hookup. I told my wife about sump pumps with battery backups, but when she suggested it to her mother Trish said that the battery would be dead when they needed it.

The Problems: Trish has no concept of what's involved in hooking up and running a genny, and Harry isn't much better. His idea of maintaining power equipment is putting gas in it until it doesn't run any more. There is no way in hell I'm going to suggest a suicide cord setup to these folks. (Trish and Harry are a couple of the reasons that I'm still stuck in MA. As much as I want to leave this hellhole I haven't reached the point where I want to off my relatives to do so. ) Even if we buy them a genny and install a legal transfer switch it's still not going to solve their problem. I don't think that Trish understands that you can't run a generator outside in the pouring rain or a blizzard. If the power goes out and it's still raining or snowing, they're not going to be able to run the genny, so their basement is still going to flood. The house has no garage, so they can't put a genny in a garage with the door fully open.

Possible Solutions: I'm thinking along the lines of a battery backup sump pump and a small genny. Hopefully, the battery will last until the storm subsides and then they could use the genny with an extension cord to run the pump until power is restored. I know Trish won't be happy with this suggestion, because it won't give her a refrigerator and some lights. I really don't think that Harry could handle a larger genny, even with a wheel kit, nor do I think he has the strength to use the recoil starter. If we buy them a genny with an electric start option, the problem is they really don't have a place to leave it plugged in to keep the battery charged, so we're back to square one. The ideal solution would be a standby natural gas genny with an automatic transfer switch, but I'm guessing that's in the ballpark of $5000 to $7000, beyond my means at this time.

Questions: Is there a possible solution to this problem that I'm missing? Is my $$ estimate on the standby genny realistic? Is there a portable genny that is designed to be run outdoors in wet weather? I know Trish will be contacting us in the next week or two to buy them a generator. She is stubborn, and if I put her off for too long she'll simply get pissed off and go out and buy one that won't solve their problems and I'll wind up dealing with the problems anyway. Any suggestions from the NES hive mind?

Edit: Sorry, Mods, I just realized I put this in the wrong forum. It belongs in Off-Topic. Please move it or merge it with the existing generator thread. Brain fart on my part.

 

[pdm]

Propane/NG fired genset with automatic transfer switch or you get to roll it out for them all the time.

[edit]
If you buy a small one and take care of firing it up for them while saving for an automatic set up, that might work. And yeah, you're going to be in for a couple grand for the standby generator, plus the cost of wiring it up. If the goal is to save yourself a headache, the automatic system is the way to go.

 

[natf]

What's wrong with a standard wheeled generator locked in a properly ventilated dog house sized outbuilding (like an actual dog house)? With electric start, a transfer switch, proper cord and instruction sheet both Trish and Harry should be able to operate it. A couple times a year you'll have to stop by to properly maintain it but that shouldn't be too bad. You might be able to get everything needed for that for a grand and two will get them set up very nicely.

Is it just not possible for them to disguise a generator shed as a dog house? Even with no garage I imagine their home has at least a couple of feet of back yard? Or do they live in a condo/townhouse?

 

[center442]

Thanks for the replies!

Propane/NG fired genset with automatic transfer switch or you get to roll it out for them all the time.

[edit]
If you buy a small one and take care of firing it up for them while saving for an automatic set up, that might work. And yeah, you're going to be in for a couple grand for the standby generator, plus the cost of wiring it up. If the goal is to save yourself a headache, the automatic system is the way to go.

Thanks, not a bad idea. I don't mind running over there to get them up and running, if only they'll call when needed. If I buy them a decent one I could eventually use it to replace my older one if/when they get hooked up to an automatic system. The next post addresses my concerns about an enclosure.

What's wrong with a standard wheeled generator locked in a properly ventilated dog house sized outbuilding (like an actual dog house)? With electric start, a transfer switch, proper cord and instruction sheet both Trish and Harry should be able to operate it. A couple times a year you'll have to stop by to properly maintain it but that shouldn't be too bad. You might be able to get everything needed for that for a grand and two will get them set up very nicely.

Is it just not possible for them to disguise a generator shed as a dog house? Even with no garage I imagine their home has at least a couple of feet of back yard? Or do they live in a condo/townhouse?

They're in a single family home and they have the room. I had looked at some of the professionally built portable generator enclosures, but they're about $1000 each. I think I could come up with something comparable for less money. Like you said, the key is making sure it has adequate ventilation. They have a shed about 100' from their house. If the shed has power to keep the battery charged for the electric starter, the generator could stay there until needed and then I could move it to the enclosure and fire it up. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[MisterHappy]

After having to deal with oldsters, I'll put in my .02:

If you're trying to buy peace of mind for you (as in you dont' have to worry) get the "built-in" genset with the automatic transfer switch.

If you get a portable, you'll go and start it, and it will stall ( or they'll forget to refill it) and the'll go back to bailing (as they won't want to bother you.)

Old folks see things differently, and a facepalm for us is a good idea for them.

 

[smokey-seven]

Your major cost in in the wiring. The gen set always comes in second place. I've had one for more than 30 years and the Genset has been changed out a few times but the wiring and switchgear lives on.

I went manual start off battery. A trickle charger with overcharge protection and you can get more than 4 or 5 years off a standard 12V deep cycle battery. I also went manual switch gear for the 110. You have a 3 way toggle switch on each outlet you want to power. City power, OFF and Gen Power. You will need a sub panel when the juice comes in and then wired to other locations.

I went with Nat Gas. Gasoline sucks and is nasty when the unit is hot and you need to refuel. For the little juice you are talking about, a 5KW (MIGHT) do it, but you have to add up the draw for all the stuff you need to run. I just bought a 10K replacement for my 5 and that is Nat Gas. It ran me 2350 with free shipping.

Remember that the location for this unit must be a number of feet away from working window. ( I don't recall the exact distance but it's around 10 I think) this is because of Carbon Monoxide. You will need permits pulled for the Nat gas as well as the electrics. I'd guess that you could get out for about 2X the generator costs with the manual electric start, wiring and switch gear. Good luck.

 

[goofycj7]

Get the Automatic transfer switch with the propane setup. Craigslist has them cheap if you keep looking, someone will get a house with a generator and sell the generator cheap.


Here is one :
http://worcester.craigslist.org/for/2566691356.html

 

[Wolf46]

If Trish and Harry are on city water, then I would install a water-powered sump pump like Basepump. They cost about $300 (not including installation) and require no power.

For the generator, a standby natural gas generator is the easiest, but very expensive.

I use a portable generator which I converted to tri-fuel (natural gas/propane/gasoline) with a kit. You can buy a pre-wired transfer switch for about $300. The whole set up cost me about $1,000 including the generator, conversion kit, and black iron pipe for the natural gas.

 

[TY43215]

I also suggest a Natural gas or Propane powered automatic unit. It is the best way to go. I know you have someone for wiring and you now you have someone for the gas pipe part so the expense of the unit is all you need.

Let me know

 

[Billsail]

To keep my battery topped off, I have mine hooked up to a small solar trickle charger. Make sure you get one that's weatherproof, and not a dashboard model.

 

[JimB]

Get the Automatic transfer switch with the propane setup. Craigslist has them cheap if you keep looking, someone will get a house with a generator and sell the generator cheap.


Here is one :
http://worcester.craigslist.org/for/2566691356.html

most of these can be converted to NG, however there is a loss of KW

with ng vs propane.

 

[JimB]

my vote is for the NG auto set up. if you go with
gasloine you will be kicking yourself in the ass
every time. Trish and Harry will forget to get more
gas, and if the outage is for any length of time,
where are you gonna buy gasoline.

JimB

 

[Billsail]

Remember that the location for this unit must be a number of feet away from working window. ( I don't recall the exact distance but it's around 10 I think) this is because of Carbon Monoxide. You will need permits pulled for the Nat gas as well as the electrics. I'd guess that you could get out for about 2X the generator costs with the manual electric start, wiring and switch gear. Good luck.

I read a study that claims NG fired engines produce 70% less CO emissions than gasoline. I will however, defer to the experts on that one, and you still must take precautions.

 

[Nfdbrian]

I have been looking at this set-up myself. I have a 4k watt portable, but a standby would be nice. I think for the money it is tough to beat since it includes the transfer switch, free shipping, and can be run off propane or NG. I would think it would cost around the $4000 to $5000 by the time it is wired and plumbed for fuel.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200434682_200434682

 

[Billsail]

Keep in mind, those of you who are considering propane on a larger generator, most of these units require at least 100lb tanks, or better, to maintain the proper "vaporization rate", to run.

 

[namedpipes]

On a genset thread on another site, someone purporting to be an electrician said the new NEC requires a genset capable of powering the main panel at it's rated capacity (not just a few essential circuits) if installed in an automatic / hardwire configuration.

He may have been all wet and I may have misremembered something, but check into it before spending too much. A call to your town will probably give the answer.

 

[fencer]

You are a good man Charlie Brown. My MIL is such a bitch that I would tell her that she could run the thing in the living room.

 

[namedpipes]

You are a good man Charlie Brown. My MIL is such a bitch that I would tell her that she could run the thing in the living room.

An anagram is rearranging the letters of a word or phrase to produce a new word or phrase, using all the original letters exactly once; e.g., orchestra = carthorse, A decimal point = I'm a dot in place.

Check this out - feel free to test it yourself (I did). It certainly applies in my case.

MOTHER IN LAW = WOMAN HITLER

 

[Len-2A Training]

See my post (#220) in another thread today http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/50760-generators!?p=2019912 with a picture of the Honeywell/Generac 12K generator for $2300 at Costco's. Comes with a pad/weather covering. No idea what the wiring would cost but that would automatically switch over and run their house. Hook up with NG or Propane (large tanks) and maintenance should be minimal/nil. Nobody gets a hernia/heart attack/electrocuted from trying to muscle a portable or hook it up (we all get older and most get weaker as well).

 

[center442]

Many thanks for all the suggestions guys. I do appreciate them. I hadn't even thought about a solar trickle charger...that would solve the issue of keeping the battery topped up if their shed doesn't have power, and I doubt that it does. The standby genny with an auto switch would be the easiest solution, but also the most expensive.

My wife and I are going to sit down with Trish and Harry and outline the options. Maybe between them and us we could split the cost of the bigger system. Trish is stubborn, and once she gets an idea into her head it's difficult to dislodge it. For her, generator=independence...but she has no clue what's involved in starting it, hooking it up, maintenance, etc. I understand wanting to maintain your independence as you get older; hell, I'm getting there myself, but there comes a time when you have to bite the bullet and admit there are some things you can't do yourself anymore and you have to have help. They're reluctant to ask for help.

I don't know which is harder, raising kids or raising parents.

 

[Devils Paintbrush]

This site gave me a lot of info when I was researching the pros and cons of generators.

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/

Here is another one I found helpful.

http://www.green-trust.org/generator/genny_install.htm

 

[RKG]

I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

Background: My MIL and her companion (let's call them Trish and Harry) are both in their early 80's. They are still pretty independent and live in Trish's home. Their basement has a water problem and they have a sump pump to keep things dry. It has to run several times an hour. During the recent storm, they lost power for 24+ hours. During that time Trish and Harry stayed up all night bailing water so the basement wouldn't flood. I just found out about it today. Trish said they didn't call for help because they didn't want to "bother us." Trish has now taken it into her mind to get a generator. At first, I thought she just wanted a small one to run the sump pump, but she told my wife she would also like to have power to the fridge and a few lights. I was thinking along the lines of a small, easy to carry genny that Harry could handle, but now we're into a medium/large generator and the related hookup. I told my wife about sump pumps with battery backups, but when she suggested it to her mother Trish said that the battery would be dead when they needed it.

The Problems: Trish has no concept of what's involved in hooking up and running a genny, and Harry isn't much better. His idea of maintaining power equipment is putting gas in it until it doesn't run any more. There is no way in hell I'm going to suggest a suicide cord setup to these folks. (Trish and Harry are a couple of the reasons that I'm still stuck in MA. As much as I want to leave this hellhole I haven't reached the point where I want to off my relatives to do so. ) Even if we buy them a genny and install a legal transfer switch it's still not going to solve their problem. I don't think that Trish understands that you can't run a generator outside in the pouring rain or a blizzard. If the power goes out and it's still raining or snowing, they're not going to be able to run the genny, so their basement is still going to flood. The house has no garage, so they can't put a genny in a garage with the door fully open.

Possible Solutions: I'm thinking along the lines of a battery backup sump pump and a small genny. Hopefully, the battery will last until the storm subsides and then they could use the genny with an extension cord to run the pump until power is restored. I know Trish won't be happy with this suggestion, because it won't give her a refrigerator and some lights. I really don't think that Harry could handle a larger genny, even with a wheel kit, nor do I think he has the strength to use the recoil starter. If we buy them a genny with an electric start option, the problem is they really don't have a place to leave it plugged in to keep the battery charged, so we're back to square one. The ideal solution would be a standby natural gas genny with an automatic transfer switch, but I'm guessing that's in the ballpark of $5000 to $7000, beyond my means at this time.

Questions: Is there a possible solution to this problem that I'm missing? Is my $$ estimate on the standby genny realistic? Is there a portable genny that is designed to be run outdoors in wet weather? I know Trish will be contacting us in the next week or two to buy them a generator. She is stubborn, and if I put her off for too long she'll simply get pissed off and go out and buy one that won't solve their problems and I'll wind up dealing with the problems anyway. Any suggestions from the NES hive mind?

Edit: Sorry, Mods, I just realized I put this in the wrong forum. It belongs in Off-Topic. Please move it or merge it with the existing generator thread. Brain fart on my part.

The folks you describe are tailor made for a 14-16 KW Generac package genset, purchased from an outfit that will turnkey installation, installation of a 6-10 circuit CritCirc transfer panel, and associated wiring. At the same time, get a service contract so that the people will come out and change the oil and filter as needed and can be called if the unit ever needs service. $5-7K should easily cover it.

 

[Executive]

Get them a small Honda 2000 watt inverter generator. Light, easy to start, quiet, and capable of powering the fridge, a few lamps, and the TV, all connected via a combination of extension cords and outlet strip . As for the pump, there are water powered pumps (hook up to the garden hose, water pressure turns impeller) that are safer and easier to use than battery powered back up sets. You're looking at around $1000 and will have peace of mind as far as safety and convenience go. If they ever move out, the small gen-set can be easily sold to recoup most of the initial investment.

Chris

 

[Coyote33]

You missed this:
How to Install a Water-Powered Sump Pump with Heating and Plumbing Expert Richard Trethewey, This Old House television