Oklahoma man shoots woman trying to steal Nazi flag from his home, authorities say

No idea. I'd need to hear the case. Knowing what I know about actual mental disorders, I doubt I'd be terribly sympathetic to that kind of defense.

It's hard for me to let anyone off the hook if their life isn't in danger. That's the same standard I apply in a police shooting, too, BTW. I'd be biased going in, but if I had to serve I'd certainly be open to the arguments.
Sounds fair to me
 
if I was defending him I would definitely go with the insane defense. His lifestyle before the incident supports it. As do his actions on the day in question. Any other tactic lands him in a cell for a long time. The law is pretty clear there he f***ed. And for all those with a murder boner for trespassing and petty theft by unarmed girls would it have been just great if the capitol police shot down all the trump supporters for trying to illegally enter the capital, with force btw. Maybe blow the brains out of the clown that walked off with the podium or the guy that took the gavel? Did the unarmed navy vet mother of 4 get what she had coming? Is the scumbag cop that shot her a hero in your minds?

Government is not a citizen and government property is not private. So again you're conflating two very different scenarios to try and create a strawman defense of your position.
 
if I was defending him I would definitely go with the insane defense. His lifestyle before the incident supports it. As do his actions on the day in question. Any other tactic lands him in a cell for a long time. The law is pretty clear there he f***ed. And for all those with a murder boner for trespassing and petty theft by unarmed girls would it have been just great if the capitol police shot down all the trump supporters for trying to illegally enter the capital, with force btw. Maybe blow the brains out of the clown that walked off with the podium or the guy that took the gavel? Did the unarmed navy vet mother of 4 get what she had coming? Is the scumbag cop that shot her a hero in your minds?

Completely different standards. Especially the standards for use of force by police (i.e. much higher than civilians).

His home, his property, dead of night, uninvited, doing god knows what.

Versus public property, mid day, and being invited in the door by said capitol police.

You have the benefit of hindsight on the situation... you also have HER side of the story. The thief who took the conflict to him, at his own home, on his own property. In that moment, neo-nazi or not, do you really think he knew whether she was armed or not? Her exact height and weight? Whether she was alone, or not? Simply stealing a flag, or doing something more? Is it unreasonable to be in fear, in that situation?

Yes. You approach someone's home in the dead of night with ill intent, you should expect a bullet. Period.

If you want to take a gamble with burglars and home invaders on your own property, that's your business, but don't stick the rest of us with the burden of waiting until we are shot, stabbed, burned, or otherwise abused and injured before we respond. They can write it on your grave stone "BigTimber was a swell guy, a good Christian, and he waited until the knife hit his spleen so he could size up the assailant and be sure lethal force was acceptable in his own home..." - "Murder boner," for f***s sake. Did your wife's boyfriend teach you that?
 
do you really think he knew whether she was armed or not? Her exact height and weight? Whether she was alone, or not? Simply stealing a flag, or doing something more? Is it unreasonable to be in fear, in that situation?

The obvious counter is a simple, basic question involving any use of firearms: if you can't accurately identify your target, should you really be shooting at it?
 
Government is not a citizen and government property is not private. So again you're conflating two very different scenarios to try and create a strawman defense of your position.
Completely different standards. Especially the standards for use of force by police (i.e. much higher than civilians).

His home, his property, dead of night, uninvited, doing god knows what.

Versus public property, mid day, and being invited in the door by said capitol police.

You have the benefit of hindsight on the situation... you also have HER side of the story. The thief who took the conflict to him, at his own home, on his own property. In that moment, neo-nazi or not, do you really think he knew whether she was armed or not? Her exact height and weight? Whether she was alone, or not? Simply stealing a flag, or doing something more? Is it unreasonable to be in fear, in that situation?

Yes. You approach someone's home in the dead of night with ill intent, you should expect a bullet. Period.

If you want to take a gamble with burglars and home invaders on your own property, that's your business, but don't stick the rest of us with the burden of waiting until we are shot, stabbed, burned, or otherwise abused and injured before we respond. They can write it on your grave stone "BigTimber was a swell guy, a good Christian, and he waited until the knife hit his spleen so he could size up the assailant and be sure lethal force was acceptable in his own home..." - "Murder boner," for f***s sake. Did your wife's boyfriend teach you that?
LoL, Wow!, anger issues much. Touched a cord huh? Deep down you wish you pulled the trigger on the unarmed little girl don’t you? Home invaders!!! Murderers marauding in the dead of night!! we’re talking about a unarmed 20 something year old female running up to a guys house from a pool party across the street and snatching a Flag while he’s lying in wait with a rifle. Then your hero shoots her in the back while she’s running away. Maybe she was going for her RPG !!!? He must have terrified!! For his life. Get a grip murder boner boy. Your poor nazi’s buddy is cooked. I was merely curious were the murder lust on some of us here over nothing Comes from. I think my question has been answered. You’re just a couple pathetic little angry men.
 
The obvious counter is a simple, basic question involving any use of firearms: if you can't accurately identify your target, should you really be shooting at it?
How is that a counter?

When I shoot a deer, I make sure it has 4" of antler - unless I have a doe permit. I can't tell you its height, weight, if it has any birth marks, if it's got ticks on it, or a gamy hoof.

The "target" in this case is the human being of an approximate size who may or may not be armed and seems to be part of a larger group, who made it all the way to the guys house in the dead of night, with ill intent. The fact that he did not know her middle name, the brand of her shoes, or what model of handgun might be tucked in her waistband, or the favorite ice cream flavors of her accomplices, is not relevant to knowing your target and what lies beyond it. By being where she was, when she was, doing what she was doing, she was the target. He accurately identified his target. And good for him, he hit his target.

The next time any of you are mugged, home invaded, burglarised, etc could you please record the 20 minutes you spend measuring your assailant with a seamstress ruler, asking about how far they're really willing to go violence-wise, finding out what they're planning to steal before they steal it, and calculating the value, oh and of course surveying them and their friends about any weapons or potential weapons they might have, etc? I think this could be educational for us simpletons who assume someone breaking into our home in the dead of night might be out to harm us.
 
How is that a counter?

When I shoot a deer, I make sure it has 4" of antler - unless I have a doe permit. I can't tell you its height, weight, if it has any birth marks, if it's got ticks on it, or a gamy hoof.

The "target" in this case is the human being of an approximate size who may or may not be armed and seems to be part of a larger group, who made it all the way to the guys house in the dead of night, with ill intent. The fact that he did not know her middle name, the brand of her shoes, or what model of handgun might be tucked in her waistband, or the favorite ice cream flavors of her accomplices, is not relevant to knowing your target and what lies beyond it. By being where she was, when she was, doing what she was doing, she was the target. He accurately identified his target. And good for him, he hit his target.

The next time any of you are mugged, home invaded, burglarised, etc could you please record the 20 minutes you spend measuring your assailant with a seamstress ruler, asking about how far they're really willing to go violence-wise, finding out what they're planning to steal before they steal it, and calculating the value, oh and of course surveying them and their friends about any weapons or potential weapons they might have, etc? I think this could be educational for us simpletons who assume someone breaking into our home in the dead of night might be out to harm us.

But see, the thing is, she wasn't armed. She wasn't even moving toward him. Her buddies weren't with her. She didn't have a hidden pitchfork or anything.

She wasn't a threat to him. At all. In other words, he was wrong in his judgement.

Honestly? I think you're so married to your position on this that you're debating just for the sake of debating. I suspect you (and most of the users here) are responsible enough in your firearms use that, on a dark night where you can't identify your target in rural Oklahoma, you wouldn't shoot relatively blindly into the night either. If you're being honest with yourself.

If he's truly so irresponsible that he didn't know what he was shooting at before he pulled the trigger, then he's at the very least negligent. If he did know what he was shooting at (no kind of threat), but fired anyway, then he's probably an attempted murderer. Again, IANAL. Time will tell.
 
...
You have the benefit of hindsight on the situation... you also have HER side of the story. The thief who took the conflict to him, at his own home, on his own property. In that moment, neo-nazi or not, do you really think he knew whether she was armed or not? Her exact height and weight? Whether she was alone, or not? Simply stealing a flag, or doing something more? Is it unreasonable to be in fear, in that situation?
...

Did you just assume their genders?
 
LoL, Wow!, anger issues much. Touched a cord huh? Deep down you wish you pulled the trigger on the unarmed little girl don’t you? Home invaders!!! Murderers marauding in the dead of night!! we’re talking about a unarmed 20 something year old female running up to a guys house from a pool party across the street and snatching a Flag while he’s lying in wait with a rifle. Then your hero shoots her in the back while she’s running away. Maybe she was going for her RPG !!!? He must have terrified!! For his life. Get a grip murder boner boy. Your poor nazi’s buddy is cooked. I was merely curious were the murder lust on some of us here over nothing Comes from. I think my question has been answered. You’re just a couple pathetic little angry men.

I'm going to reel back the ad-hominem on my part before I get in trouble, and take in your weasel words.

He's not my "nazi buddy" but being an American I have to defend his right to peacefully speak his mind, and display whatever images he sees fit, even when his opinions and beliefs are disgusting to me. That's a foundational principle of our nation, as is the idea that regardless of how horrid his ideals are, he deserves to be safe and secure in his person and property, especially in his own home and on his own property. I don't like you, but I believe you have the right to hold bad beliefs and voice them as well... but not the right to control others behavior.

"Laying in wait with a rifle" my goodness! Where did you concoct that? I thought he was a person who - in the dead of night - was frightened for his life by the sound of a person burglarising his home, and grabbed his rifle. Did he have a tree stand or a duck blind set up? Spider hole? Sandbags? Leaning out the window just waiting to do some murdering? Or was he the victim of a crime, from a person who came on to his property with ill intent in the dead of night.

He did not shoot her in the back, he shot her in the front or side.... which suggests her story of "running away" is at least partially horseshit, or occurred after being shot. She seems to have reached her group of friends, who it's entirely possible were visible to the sole occupant of the house, which was being burlarised in the wee hours of the morning. That's a scary thing, especially in the midst of the political climate last summer. Especially to someone who actually is a nazi, I suppose, when that term is being bandied around loosely by terrorist organizations who commit daily bouts of street violence.

Again, you have the benefit of hindsight rather than being frightened in the moment in your own home, and you have almost exclusively the thief and her accomplices version of the story. All of that filtered through a media lens that is unforgiving to gun owners, conservatives, and those who they perceive to be conservatives, including this guys particular flavor of socialist/leftist.

I would not toss the word "pathetic" around, friend. Most men are not eager to bend over and wait to see what's coming in the back door when it's midnight at their own home.
 
But see, the thing is, she wasn't armed. She wasn't even moving toward him. Her buddies weren't with her. She didn't have a hidden pitchfork or anything.

She wasn't a threat to him. At all. In other words, he was wrong in his judgement.

Honestly? I think you're so married to your position on this that you're debating just for the sake of debating. I suspect you (and most of the users here) are responsible enough in your firearms use that, on a dark night where you can't identify your target in rural Oklahoma, you wouldn't shoot relatively blindly into the night either. If you're being honest with yourself.

If he's truly so irresponsible that he didn't know what he was shooting at before he pulled the trigger, then he's at the very least negligent. If he did know what he was shooting at (no kind of threat), but fired anyway, then he's probably an attempted murderer. Again, IANAL. Time will tell.

Yes, in hind sight we know now that she was not armed and her friends were not armed. In the moment, who knew that? Her?

We are told she was fleeing, and not moving towards him... by her and her accomplices. The way in which she was struck tends to suggest that is not the case.

The fact that he hit his target tends to suggest he knew his target, and was not "shooting blindly into the night". He hit his target.

I am married to the position that an individual in his own home, on his own property, should not have to think twice about shooting a burglar in the night - without playing 20 questions with them - unless said burglar should freeze and put their hands up when confronted. I am married to the position that an individual choosing to burglarize or invade a private home on private property absolutely should fear being shot, knowing that their victim is in the right when doing so. It is absolutely a hill that I will die on. Nobody should have to gamble with their own lives in their own home or on their own property. If you or others here choose to do so, that's your choice, not one to force on others.

"She was just a little girl, she wasn't armed, she wasn't gonna do nuthin just steal the flag" so she says. Now. Not exactly known when the glass breaks in the dead of night.
 
I'm going to reel back the ad-hominem on my part before I get in trouble, and take in your weasel words.

He's not my "nazi buddy" but being an American I have to defend his right to peacefully speak his mind, and display whatever images he sees fit, even when his opinions and beliefs are disgusting to me. That's a foundational principle of our nation, as is the idea that regardless of how horrid his ideals are, he deserves to be safe and secure in his person and property, especially in his own home and on his own property. I don't like you, but I believe you have the right to hold bad beliefs and voice them as well... but not the right to control others behavior.

"Laying in wait with a rifle" my goodness! Where did you concoct that? I thought he was a person who - in the dead of night - was frightened for his life by the sound of a person burglarising his home, and grabbed his rifle. Did he have a tree stand or a duck blind set up? Spider hole? Sandbags? Leaning out the window just waiting to do some murdering? Or was he the victim of a crime, from a person who came on to his property with ill intent in the dead of night.

He did not shoot her in the back, he shot her in the front or side.... which suggests her story of "running away" is at least partially horseshit, or occurred after being shot. She seems to have reached her group of friends, who it's entirely possible were visible to the sole occupant of the house, which was being burlarised in the wee hours of the morning. That's a scary thing, especially in the midst of the political climate last summer. Especially to someone who actually is a nazi, I suppose, when that term is being bandied around loosely by terrorist organizations who commit daily bouts of street violence.

Again, you have the benefit of hindsight rather than being frightened in the moment in your own home, and you have almost exclusively the thief and her accomplices version of the story. All of that filtered through a media lens that is unforgiving to gun owners, conservatives, and those who they perceive to be conservatives, including this guys particular flavor of socialist/leftist.

I would not toss the word "pathetic" around, friend. Most men are not eager to bend over and wait to see what's coming in the back door when it's midnight at their own home.
You started the ad-hominem nonsense with the wife’s boyfriend garbage. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it. Beyond that I’m now bored with it. It’s a open and shut case.he’s done.
 
You started the ad-hominem nonsense with the wife’s boyfriend garbage. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it. Beyond that I’m now bored with it. It’s a open and shut case.he’s done.

Actually, you started it with the name calling and murder boner nonsense.

I replied in kind, which was a mistake, and that's why I said I'm going to reel it back on my part.

But man, talk about anger issues... Did you really get so heated that you fabricated more of the story than the burglar did?
 
I am married to the position that an individual choosing to burglarize or invade a private home on private property absolutely should fear being shot, knowing that their victim is in the right when doing so. It is absolutely a hill that I will die on. Nobody should have to gamble with their own lives in their own home or on their own property. If you or others here choose to do so, that's your choice, not one to force on others.

Again, philosophically, your position makes sense overall. But the devil's in the details. And the law is against summary execution, no matter how you think it "should" work.

As long as people keep their big boy pants on and don't whine when they have to face the consequences of their actions, I don't really have a problem with what almost anyone does. Idealism is fine, but we're in a real world that doesn't work like you wish it does.
 
Actually, you started it with the name calling and murder boner nonsense.

I replied in kind, which was a mistake, and that's why I said I'm going to reel it back on my part.

But man, talk about anger issues... Did you really get so heated that you fabricated more of the story than the burglar did?
Like fabricating misdemeanor trespassing to felony burglary? Making up stuff like that you mean?1850CAAE-98D2-4AD9-B577-0B1BA51F2EB5.jpeg
 
Again, philosophically, your position makes sense overall. But the devil's in the details. And the law is against summary execution, no matter how you think it "should" work.

As long as people keep their big boy pants on and don't whine when they have to face the consequences of their actions, I don't really have a problem with what almost anyone does. Idealism is fine, but we're in a real world that doesn't work like you wish it does.

And that is of course the case as far as the law is concerned... and the current laws defy the American tradition. Of course a lot depends on the actual circumstances of the event. The law is a whore, and our legal system is broken. I'm simply struck by the idea that everyone can assume the home owner is lying, and the person who instigated the incident by breaking a variety of laws (rather than sitting in his own living room shaving his head and listening to Wagner) is some innocent little girl to be believed. I'd guess it mostly has to do with his shitty ideology, because if he was anything other than a neo nazi the cries of "big crowd of antifa types" and "lying media, their store doesn't comport with her injuries" would be through the roof.

The problem (especially with actual nazis, but these days with "conservative therefore nazi" and "gun owner therefore nazi" folks as well) is that any possible contortion of the law or public opinion will be made to ensure nobody knows what happened, no semblance of justice will be delivered, and whatever the leftist position is will be the winner of the day. You can be on your own lawn with a rifle in hand (an act explicitly protected by law in the circumstance I'm thinking of) while tresspassers surround you shouting death threats, call the police and be told "we will not respond", only to be found guilty of an inapplicable and unrelated crime, and have your assailants face no charges.

It's a sea change that leaves people deciding "damned if I do, damned if I don't... why not do?" - even moronic nazis.

Like fabricating misdemeanor trespassing to felony burglary? Making up stuff like that you mean?View attachment 506655

Dude, just shut up already. You're angry and you don't know what you're talking about, and you invented a cartoonish scenario in your mind. A flag pole on the house is considered part of the house, and it meets the OK definition of 2nd Degree burglary to remove it, or try to remove it. They charge 2nd Degree burglary for removing copper gutters in OK, too. Just walk away man, you're spoiling my murder boner.
 
And that is of course the case as far as the law is concerned... and the current laws defy the American tradition. Of course a lot depends on the actual circumstances of the event. The law is a whore, and our legal system is broken. I'm simply struck by the idea that everyone can assume the home owner is lying, and the person who instigated the incident by breaking a variety of laws (rather than sitting in his own living room shaving his head and listening to Wagner) is some innocent little girl to be believed. I'd guess it mostly has to do with his shitty ideology, because if he was anything other than a neo nazi the cries of "big crowd of antifa types" and "lying media, their store doesn't comport with her injuries" would be through the roof.

The problem (especially with actual nazis, but these days with "conservative therefore nazi" and "gun owner therefore nazi" folks as well) is that any possible contortion of the law or public opinion will be made to ensure nobody knows what happened, no semblance of justice will be delivered, and whatever the leftist position is will be the winner of the day. You can be on your own lawn with a rifle in hand (an act explicitly protected by law in the circumstance I'm thinking of) while tresspassers surround you shouting death threats, call the police and be told "we will not respond", only to be found guilty of an inapplicable and unrelated crime, and have your assailants face no charges.

It's a sea change that leaves people deciding "damned if I do, damned if I don't... why not do?" - even moronic nazis.



Dude, just shut up already. You're angry and you don't know what you're talking about, and you invented a cartoonish scenario in your mind. A flag pole on the house is considered part of the house, and it meets the OK definition of 2nd Degree burglary to remove it, or try to remove it. They charge 2nd Degree burglary for removing copper gutters in OK, too. Just walk away man, you're spoiling my murder boner.
“Angry guy” says the guy advocating execution for unarmed little girls running away. Lol. We’ll see how how it shakes out F Lee Bailey
 
And that is of course the case as far as the law is concerned... and the current laws defy the American tradition. Of course a lot depends on the actual circumstances of the event. The law is a whore, and our legal system is broken. I'm simply struck by the idea that everyone can assume the home owner is lying, and the person who instigated the incident by breaking a variety of laws (rather than sitting in his own living room shaving his head and listening to Wagner) is some innocent little girl to be believed. I'd guess it mostly has to do with his shitty ideology, because if he was anything other than a neo nazi the cries of "big crowd of antifa types" and "lying media, their store doesn't comport with her injuries" would be through the roof.

The problem (especially with actual nazis, but these days with "conservative therefore nazi" and "gun owner therefore nazi" folks as well) is that any possible contortion of the law or public opinion will be made to ensure nobody knows what happened, no semblance of justice will be delivered, and whatever the leftist position is will be the winner of the day. You can be on your own lawn with a rifle in hand (an act explicitly protected by law in the circumstance I'm thinking of) while tresspassers surround you shouting death threats, call the police and be told "we will not respond", only to be found guilty of an inapplicable and unrelated crime, and have your assailants face no charges.

It's a sea change that leaves people deciding "damned if I do, damned if I don't... why not do?" - even moronic nazis.

Speaking for myself, I don't care very much that he's a Nazi. This is the kind of thing that gives all of us a chance to evaluate what went right or wrong, what we would do, etc, so I'm mostly just imagining someone tried to steal something off my porch from the house party across the road.

I fear going to jail quite a bit more than I fear something getting lifted from my porch, honestly, and I have no wish to miss and hit my neighbors. Anything that I leave out on the porch, I leave out because it won't bug me too much if it gets destroyed. But that's just me.
 
LoL, Wow!, anger issues much. Touched a cord huh? Deep down you wish you pulled the trigger on the unarmed little girl don’t you? Home invaders!!! Murderers marauding in the dead of night!! we’re talking about a unarmed 20 something year old female running up to a guys house from a pool party across the street and snatching a Flag while he’s lying in wait with a rifle. Then your hero shoots her in the back while she’s running away. Maybe she was going for her RPG !!!? He must have terrified!! For his life. Get a grip murder boner boy. Your poor nazi’s buddy is cooked. I was merely curious were the murder lust on some of us here over nothing Comes from. I think my question has been answered. You’re just a couple pathetic little angry men.

You need to consider trying some decaf and maybe control your embellishment tendencies just a tad. Nothing in what you wrote here is what I said. Lol
“Angry guy” says the guy advocating execution for unarmed little girls running away. Lol. We’ll see how how it shakes out F Lee Bailey

Advocating for there not to be a law against something is not avocation for doing that same thing. Again you've moved to the strawman argument.

Saying Nazi free speech is protected speech, doesn't mean you support rounding up the Jews. Supporting what is essentially a stand your ground or castle doctrine extension to cover property doesn't mean people support shooting everyone on their property, even if they are stealing.

I don't support drug laws or using drugs being illegal. That doesn't mean I'm sitting here pounding heroin.
 
“Angry guy” says the guy advocating execution for unarmed little girls running away. Lol. We’ll see how how it shakes out F Lee Bailey

Angry guy is making stuff up rather than trying to parse out the situation, and being exceptionally hyperbolic and name-cally because his entire argument amounts to "we'll see how armed and dangerous the person who sneaks up to my home in the night is after I determine their BMI and shoe size and possibly take a knife to the gut" because of course he has the benefit of hindsight in this situation.

My commentary is not, and has never been, anything to do with the idea that his defense will be successful, or that it's likely his shots were taken within the strictures of state law... beyond the idea that maybe more of what actually happened might come out, and soften the blow on him somewhat. I'm just saying I understand his defense's argument re; the summer bolshevik attacks and legitimate fear. More to the point, commentary on the principles surrounding the shoot, the idea that even if it was completely clean he would not likely get a fair shake, and that historically what he did in defense of his property was in keeping with traditional American laws and principles.

I'm with Picton; he's boned, and on a one-way ticket to prison where most of the other neo-nazis in this country reside. Maybe he'll see some new friends, maybe they'll resize his asterisk for him. If it turns out to be 10 years instead of 20 because of some little hiccup like "he didn't shoot her in the back, at least not the first shot" or "she actually threatened/assaulted him" or "and the friends were on the edge of the property shouting threateningly" I will not be surprised, but he's not going home any time soon.
 
Roger that, I fully understand where you two stand. And appreciate your candor. Murder away over petty theft. As long as it’s the aggrieved private party making the life and death decision and not a dispassionate legal system Of course. Makes perfect sense. In your worlds there would definitely be way less theft I’ll concede, Way less people too But whatever, I’ll stick with the non lunatic approach we’ve adopted as a nation were human life is more valuable than 5 dollar Nazi flags. I’m must be a statist!! Call me crazy. I’ll be outside setting up my Trump 2024 sign and Claymore’s
 
Roger that, I fully understand where you two stand. And appreciate your candor. Murder away over petty theft. As long as it’s the aggrieved private party making the life and death decision and not a dispassionate legal system Of course. Makes perfect sense. In your worlds there would definitely be way less theft I’ll concede, Way less people too But whatever, I’ll stick with the non lunatic approach we’ve adopted as a nation were human life is more valuable than 5 dollar Nazi flags. I’m must be a statist!! Call me crazy. I’ll be outside setting up my Trump 2024 sign and Claymore’s

Show me a dispassionate legal system in 2021 and and I will eat both your hat and mine.

Human life is as valuable as the person in charge of it. Some people skydive, some people drive too fast, some people sneak up to other people's homes in the night with ill intent.
 
Compared to a nazi? I can’t believe I’m saying this but I’ll go with the legal system.

You are way behind the curve, man.

I don't mean that as an insult; again I'll step back from any name calling and just say, you need to wake up to what's gone on and going on in even the most rural court systems in this country. A different flavor of equally horrible political ideology is firmly in control most of the justice system, from the top down and the ground up. DAs, prosecutors and judges alike are not what they used to be (which on a good day was already too career-obsessed) - the people in charge are, with rare exception, political activists happy to missapply or simply not apply the law. That's on top of the existing issues with the rubber stamp coercion-and-plea-bargain system that replaced "justice" 30-40 years ago.

You seem reluctant to use force and I respect that, but you could go down just like the mini-Fuhrer here, and be reported on, charged, and treated as if you were part of the same stupid club, regardless of what you do (or for that matter, don't do) to defend yourself against a person of the wrong political ideology, race, gender, or combination thereof.

Neo nazis outside of prison tend to be sad little men accountant-looking men, or overweight bubba types with a near even tooth-to-digit ratio, who put on stupid uniforms and hand out pamplets at the park, until someone beats them up or chases them off. They're not exactly a hotbed of criminal activity and violent outburst in the real world; even the SPLC - which tends to round up rather heavily - thinks there are a scant few thousand of them in existence. When they get locked up, they stay locked up, and nobody is eager to pay their bail or cast a blind eye on their actions. The same is not true of the similarly named, far more active, far more violent, and far more organized political groups which have been responsible for the lions share of the mass street violence of the last year - and they have support in high places as well as the middle.
 
You are way behind the curve, man.

I don't mean that as an insult; again I'll step back from any name calling and just say, you need to wake up to what's gone on and going on in even the most rural court systems in this country. A different flavor of equally horrible political ideology is firmly in control most of the justice system, from the top down and the ground up. DAs, prosecutors and judges alike are not what they used to be (which on a good day was already too career-obsessed) - the people in charge are, with rare exception, political activists happy to missapply or simply not apply the law. That's on top of the existing issues with the rubber stamp coercion-and-plea-bargain system that replaced "justice" 30-40 years ago.

You seem reluctant to use force and I respect that, but you could go down just like the mini-Fuhrer here, and be reported on, charged, and treated as if you were part of the same stupid club, regardless of what you do (or for that matter, don't do) to defend yourself against a person of the wrong political ideology, race, gender, or combination thereof.

Neo nazis outside of prison tend to be sad little men accountant-looking men, or overweight bubba types with a near even tooth-to-digit ratio, who put on stupid uniforms and hand out pamplets at the park, until someone beats them up or chases them off. They're not exactly a hotbed of criminal activity and violent outburst in the real world; even the SPLC - which tends to round up rather heavily - thinks there are a scant few thousand of them in existence. When they get locked up, they stay locked up, and nobody is eager to pay their bail or cast a blind eye on their actions. The same is not true of the similarly named, far more active, far more violent, and far more organized political groups which have been responsible for the lions share of the mass street violence of the last year - and they have support in high places as well as the middle.
I agree with a whole bunch of what you say and yes I would be VERY reluctant to use deadly force over property, I wouldn’t in fact, unless loss of said property could result in my or my families immediate harm. Enter my house unlawfully while my families present and you go out feet First No hesitation whatsoever. Having said that you‘ll never Persuade me this was anything short of attempted murder. Also I think any notion this individual was in fear is ludicrous. I actually find it more Believable he set up an attractive nuisance hoping for this very outcome. But that’s mere guess work on my part, I don’t know what was truly in Adolfs mind, other than goose stepping around in short pants with a tiny mustache. I can agree to the death penalty in the whole wide range of crimes. Stealing lawn signs and flags or skateboards aren’t one of them. And for what’s it’s worth I didn’t start the ad hom attacks with you, I had the seagull in mind when I threw that out. Day gents.
 
All this could have been prevented with a simple stump fence.
the-architects-clue-bucket-21-638.jpg

@MGnoob
 
No idea. I'd need to hear the case. Knowing what I know about actual mental disorders, I doubt I'd be terribly sympathetic to that kind of defense.

It's hard for me to let anyone off the hook if their life isn't in danger. That's the same standard I apply in a police shooting, too, BTW. I'd be biased going in, but if I had to serve I'd certainly be open to the arguments.

Article-2A said:
[Art.] 2-a. [The Bearing of Arms.] All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.
December 1, 1982

I'm not suggesting that it would be prudent to exercise 2A if someone tries to steal your twinky but clearly the intent and specific language ensures citizens of NH do in point of fact have the constitutionally guaranteed right to defend their property.......

Please note date of passage
 
All this could have been prevented with a simple stump fence.
the-architects-clue-bucket-21-638.jpg

@MGnoob

My biggest failure is being too nice to people. Everybody get ready I’m taking it to the next level.

I find it interesting that my stump wall may have been considered unlawful..,Yeah I have about 4000 feet of my neighbors stumping me off. I guess I’m just an amateur
 
I'm not suggesting that it would be prudent to exercise 2A if someone tries to steal your twinky but clearly the intent and specific language ensures citizens of NH do in point of fact have the constitutionally guaranteed right to defend their property.......

Please note date of passage

Sure, but I’m never going to be called for a New Hampshire jury. Neither are the jurors in the case we’re discussing.

But I bet he’d be boned there too, regardless of the wording you posted.
 
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