You're a believer in individual responsibility, though, I'm sure. So you'd be prepared to deal with the legal fallout of your decision, right? Given that this is the real world, and not fantasyland?
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Oklahoma man shoots woman trying to steal Nazi flag from his home, authorities say
- Thread starter Reptile
- Start date
You're a believer in individual responsibility, though, I'm sure. So you'd be prepared to deal with the legal fallout of your decision, right? Given that this is the real world, and not fantasyland?
I am and always have been a realist.
I can think of three incidents involving thieves on family property over the years , two that ended up in ass whippings and the only actual pistol whipping I have ever witnessed ( Handed out by my old man ).
No one had to be shot , but trust me it was always an option if the need arose .
When you grew up scrapping for everything you had you defend it with the same ferocity you earned it.
Something lost on people who have it way too easy.
tinhorn
NES Member
Yup. A couple years ago I was on the back patio when I saw some stupid a**h*** walking through my back yard like he owned the place. Asked him what the hell he thought he was doing, and he reminded me of the newspaper article announcing that the town was going to send spies to look outside--and INSIDE--properties for taxing purposes. WTF?! I'm not always dressed for company in the privacy of my back yard if you get my drift. You really need an invitation.
Was the only time I wished I had a couple Dobermans wandering the grounds. My less than cordial attitude deteriorated even further when he thought he was going to inspect the inside of my house. Hahahaha! Sorry, a**h***, I was neither born nor raised in this third-world cesspool. Show me a warrant or leave.
AHM
NES Member
You're an old softie by comparison to this guy I know from Ayer.
tinhorn
NES Member
Seems stupidly excessive at first glance but I don't know the details. Was there any reason for the guy to feel that she and her possible accomplices were preparing to invade his house? How many accomplices might have been hiding behind bushes, or even already at his back door? Were they of a protected class (such as those in South Africa who are immune from prosecution if they murder Caucasians)?
All I think is that 1) He has a right to fly a flag that some people might find offensive, and 2) offended people have the option to look away from whatever is offending them and STFU, and 3) the offensive flag could be a media red herring simply because it makes great clickbait, and 4) many Americans have a right to secure their property instead of having to run and hide like little girls (a MA tradition since 1812), so 5) the perpetrator seemingly had no right to be threatening the property and/or the occupant in any way, but 6) our culture has been teaching women for decades that they're not really responsible for their actions, so it's REALLY the fault of the patriarchy.
Happened in the height of the riots and bolshevik home invasions last summer, right about the time when 3 cities had multi-block areas declare they were leaving the US and beatings were being down left and right... I think the argument could be made, yeah. Especially depending on what she said to him and how she was dressed at the time.
Totally random example.
You hang your bandana out on the closeline to dry. Dude shows up on your lawn in the dead of night to tear it down, you confront him, and he starts screaming "You Bloods need to get out of this neighborhood, homie. I'm a muffuggin' Crip and we gon fugg you up, homes!" - he happens to be wearing a different color bandana around his head (and jorts with high socks or whatever). That person has told you verbally, and with their mode of dress insinuated, that they are part of a large, active, violent group, which is widely known for regularly/currently attacking people. A reasonable person thinks "this is a member of a gang which is known to be violent, there are likely more of them, they have invaded my property and robbed me, I am afraid for my life".
Now let's say it's a Gadsden flag, or a Threeper flag, or a in this case a Nazi flag (which is agreed by all to be stupid) and it's hanging off your house. Lady shows up on your lawn in the dead of night to tear it down, you confront her, she screams "Bash the fash, get the f*** out of our neighborhood you white supremacist bigoted CIS male! I'm a certified anti-fascist and you are going to hell!" - and she happens to be wearing a black hoodie with a bandana over her face (and what, skinny black jeans and Doc Martens?). This person has told you verbally, and with their mode of dress insinuated, that they are part of a large, active, violent group which is widely known for regularly/currently attacking people. A reasonable person thinks "this is a member of a terror group which is known to be violent, there are likely more of them, they have invaded my property and robbed me, I am afraid for my life".
Thankfully, detestable as they are, Nazis are NOT known to be actively/regularly/currently attacking people - at least outside of prison, and not to random people. Also this idiot hung his moron-warning on his own property, and didn't feel the need to vandalize or burglarize anyone on their property or instigate anything. I'd also point out this woman was not shot in the back, but the side or front, and she started all of this with other people present (if not on the lawn right next to her). Spitballing here, but they might have been a crowd of shadowy figures on, or at the edge of the property where she committed her crime and instigated the incident. They may have even been verbally involved (again, spitballing).
He "fired without warning as she was running away" - why was she running then? Was she even running, or just according to her / her friends? How'd she get hit in the front or side, then? She was found with a bunch of people in a ditch, getting first aid. Were they in the ditch while she was shot? Was that ditch on his property, or on the edge of it? Did he call the police, or did she? I'd give big money to hear the 911 call, if it was him. Or her for that matter.
All of these are great arguments in favor of courts, investigations, and careful consideration. They're not great arguments in favor of shooting first and crossing your fingers that you made the right call.
Reminder: she never did end up stealing the flag, either.
What did she do, then? And how was she shot "without warning" if she knew the guy was there with a rifle, and that caused her to run before completing her crime? And if she knew she was running from said person, how was she not shot in the back? Was she even running.
The system and courts in most states are crap. Don't want to end up dead, do not even attempt to burlarize people on their property in the dead of night. And if you are caught doing so, put your hands in the air and surrender. This should not even be a question in the US, and it was not one for the first century and a half to two in most of this country.
Nobody in the US should have to think twice about defending themselves however they see fit when a criminal invades their property with ill intent in the dead of night. There are no mind readers, sorry.
The only people gambling with their lives should be the instigators who trespass and invade, not the victims thinking twice about stopping the person who brought the fight to them without provocation.
There's that word again...
At this point, we're solving nothing here. In a perfect world, sure, nobody would get hassled for defending their property from legitimate threats. But then, in a perfect world, nobody would steal. And in a perfect world, property owners would be relied on to understand the difference between a girl trying to swipe a flag on a dare and a bunch of brigands with pitchforks.
We don't live in that perfect world. We're stuck in the one we've got, where shooting fleeing thieves is a very unwise thing to do. This guy didn't figure that out; that's on him, and I hope he was ready to pay the price.
I am sure he will pay the price but it is an unjust price. In a world where there is no hassle for people defending their property, there would be a lot fewer people doing what she did. The problem with being stopped in the act is we never get to know what more was to come from the bad actor (burglar) but it is unfair to put that burden on the victim to allow themselves to potentially be further victimised on their own property.
I appreciate the spirited debate (as always) but I cannot keep up with whether you are arguing the morality or legality of his actions.
Truth is, I think depending on what actually happened, his actions might have been legal. That definitely will not matter in todays political climate which unfortunately colors the judicial system in an innapropriate way. Regardless of what actually happened (even if it happened as she described), I have no qualms with saying his actions were morally and ethically acceptable and totally in keeping with traditional American principles and norms.
I'm not qualified to talk about the legality, since it's been almost 30 years since I lived in Oklahoma and IANAL. But I'd be pretty shocked if escalating straight to deadly force over a piece of cloth is lawful. I'll let the courts figure that out.
The moral argument is twofold. Sure, we "should" have a right to defend our property. That's unquestioned. But speaking ONLY FOR MYSELF and my own ideas on morality, I believe in shooting people who are threatening me. I don't believe in grossly disproportionate force, and I certainly don't believe in shooting people who are running away. She was zero threat to him. Zero. I wouldn't have fired in this case, but then I like to think that if I was flying Nazi flags, I'd expect hassles from the locals and I'd probably set up cameras or floodlights or Rottweilers or something. There's PLENTY of fail here to go around, from both people involved in this.
I'm not him. I have a family. My kids don't need me to go to jail, especially over something this ludicrous.
JMO, IANAL, YMMV, etc.
I think there is a strong chance she was not running away, that she was part of a larger group, and may have said something (or been part of a group saying things) that were threatening - or more threatening than simply burglarising a home in the dead of night with a group nearby watching or helping. No way of knowing, but the facts do not line up with her story and the reporting is near useless. The lack of a 911 tape is suggestive...
To me, the proportionality of force argument ends at the property line, at sundown. If other victims choose to risk their lives being more forgiving, that should be their choice and I will respect it. That choice should not be the governments.
xtry51
NES Member
Direct result of gov turning communist. The liberal section of gov is now using BLM/Antifa as the brown shirt army to solidify power while demonizing the right. Pure repeat of 1930s Germany.
Nazis are simply the camel under the tent to full white demonization. This is exactly why defending the rights of the most abhorrent people is critical to free societies. Once you cave to the edges of censorship, it gets out of control.
SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
The Nazi guy is/was probably fed up with all the politically correct, Woke, stupid shit that is getting forced upon all of us. This incident might have put him over the edge, maybe a moment of insanity potentially. Don’t push your beliefs on other people and they won’t be as angry, don’t go into peoples yards and try to steal their beliefs or property and you won’t have to worry about getting shot over it
if I was defending him I would definitely go with the insane defense. His lifestyle before the incident supports it. As do his actions on the day in question. Any other tactic lands him in a cell for a long time. The law is pretty clear there he f***ed. And for all those with a murder boner for trespassing and petty theft by unarmed girls would it have been just great if the capitol police shot down all the trump supporters for trying to illegally enter the capital, with force btw. Maybe blow the brains out of the clown that walked off with the podium or the guy that took the gavel? Did the unarmed navy vet mother of 4 get what she had coming? Is the scumbag cop that shot her a hero in your minds?
SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
I don’t support this guy shooting her at all, but I can understand it. I also don’t feel bad for this woman even a little bit. But Insanity won’t work because the judges all support the bullshit going on and are on the side of the Antifa & BLM type shitbags.
I know you don’t. I was just about to edit my response to clarify it wasn’t directed at you. Your text got me thinking on the insane defense. However I will push back on your judges supporting antifa and BLM, maybe in CA this is Oklahoma.
SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
All good bud, I figured you knew where I was coming from. Maybe the Oklahoma thing will support an insanity defense, your 100% accurate about having a better shot at this type of defense in OK as opposed to CA/MA/NY type places.
In most states, insanity defenses aren't about demonstrated past behavior; they're about whether the perp knew, at that particular moment, that what he was doing was wrong.
Things like "did he run and grab his rifle from the closet" become important in cases like that. So is "did he call 911 or try to render aid." These are things I have no idea about, but his attorney would need to know if he was going to try an insanity defense.
SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
If you were on the jury would you support an temporary insanity defense claim? If the facts supported him having a gun handy and reacting to seeing this woman attempt to to steal said sign?
I dont think that’s correct, but I’m no expert I only play one on NES. I do believe the defendants actions and such leading up to the event are admissible in a insanity defense. i’m specifically thinking of the case where the dad shot the murderous pedophile that killed his son In dallas. His actions for the month or so leading up to his vigilante shooting of the perpetrator were admissible in court as to show his slipping mental capacities.
SHOCKNAWE
NES Member
I don’t think he has any other play. Tough call on that because I know I’ve been more and more angry since the Floyd incident and all the stupid shit going on, who knows this guys back story? Maybe the night before he caught his woman having a train run on her by a basketball team? You don’t know what’s going on with people personally so for me I’d need to know more about this guy. If he was just a practicing Neo Nazi? Then not a chance
No idea. I'd need to hear the case. Knowing what I know about actual mental disorders, I doubt I'd be terribly sympathetic to that kind of defense.
It's hard for me to let anyone off the hook if their life isn't in danger. That's the same standard I apply in a police shooting, too, BTW. I'd be biased going in, but if I had to serve I'd certainly be open to the arguments.
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