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Obamacare and Gun Control
- Thread starter Woodstock
- Start date
One of the main reasons I will NEVER go to the VA for health care even though I qualify for free health care after two deployments. All it takes is one a**hole of a doc to ask certain questions and it could mean saying goodbye to my 2nd Amendment rights. Lost of my veteran buddies say the same thing.......NEVER go see the VA for help with anxiety or PTSD if you like hunting and shooting sports.
TOM1960
Banned
I wouldn't mention it to any doctor, nurse, or physician assistant. Whatever you say can and will be used against you. My standard answer to the question of firearms ownership is a polite but firm "No".
I didnt' mean the "do you own guns" question. I meant questions about mental health.....there are guys going to the VA right now that say they have nightmares about combat and it raises flags that could put them on the Prohibited person list.
IT is all BS
I strongly disagree with this. If you need treatment, get it. I know many people who have gotten VA treatment for PTSD, none have had their firearms taken.
Mike
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Mike
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A good point is being made here. Mike, I'd be willing to bet the individuals you know who have received treatment did not do so under the current insane political atmosphere we now live under. Obama is pissed he didn't get what he wanted so now he is directing all departments to do whatever they can WRT guns. The only one that can do something is the VA with regard to mental health. The ATF is constrained a lot by law so there is little he can do there and most all other departments have nothing with which to affect guns.
When was the last time they tried to fill out a 4473?
As far as I know, the only mechanism by which you could become a PP is if the VA declares you incompetent to handle your finances, which is an extreme case. No one is combing your VA charts to look for "flags", and the government already has all your non-VA diagnoses in an all-payer claims database if you live in MA, NH or a dozen other states, or in Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare files.
I guess the worst that could happen by spreading this nonsense is that impressionable vets would forego needed treatment.
I must have missed the part of the 4473 where it asks if you are seeking treatment for ptsd, depression, or anxiety.
Maybe you should re read section "f" before giving legal advice. You should also stfu telling those who need help not to get it. That is precisely what leads to people getting hurt or killed.
Mike
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Maybe you should re read section "f" before giving legal advice. You should also stfu telling those who need help not to get it. That is precisely what leads to people getting hurt or killed.
Mike
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I asked because some of them might be on the PP list and not know it. Just because they get added doesn't necessarily mean that they send the JBTs over to go grab them.
The proportion of VA enrollees with a recent diagnosis for serious mental health/substance abuse is pretty high, something like 10-15% in the under-65 crowd, much lower in elderly vets. You'd think there'd be a lot of young vets getting unexpected NICS denials, but you don't really hear about that much, if ever. Yet the rumors and misinformation gets spread.
Our doctor stopped asking us because he got tired of us telling him that our ownership of any firearm is none of his damned business. The first year he asked he was adamant to get an answer and I thought that we were going to come to blows over the question. We almost switched doctors over that question. We all know that the doctors asking that question will eagerly surrender it to the government.
Look I never told anybody to not seek help if they need it. I was speaking for myself only and stated I know vets that avoid the VA....I stated "MY BUDDIES SAY NEVER GO TO THE VA"....NOT THAT I SAY DON"T GO TO THE VA.......for the specific reason posted in the article that this discussion is about. THe quote from the article is below that gets vets worried:
"Under Obamacare, federal agencies like the ATF can still pore over health records and determine who has mental issues or PTSD. There is nothing in Obamacare that prohibits another federal agency from compiling a database of gun owners."
This is the crap that vets are worried about.......
RockIt
Banned
Another impeccable source: Town Hall
Full of "coulds, mights, mays, possiblies" etc.
I agree with CrazyMJB. If a vet has PTSD, he/she needs to get help. Most of you clowns have no idea what it is like to have PTSD, but it is a fun buzzword, huh?
I see the VA regularly, they diagnosed PTSD a few years ago, I have had absolutely no problem buying or selling firearms.
Some of you forget about the vet who shot Chis Kyle, he had severe PTSD, was undergoing treatment for it. Should he have been able to go to a shooting range? Yup. Should his rights have been revoked? Nope. Did his PTSD have anything to do with the murders? Who knows, but it certainly will be used in his defense. For all I know, he may have shot them because of a heated argument or any other reason. He may not have been around the bend due to PTSD. But one thing is for certain, his life was miserable having PTSD.
Should Our Fearless Leader be linking or creating the language to link PTSD with potential gun control? Definitely not.
When the VA diagnosed me, the doc asked if I had any guns. When I said I did, he told me "If you have ANY, even passing thoughts, of suicide, the best thing you can do is move those guns out of the house, or have them locked up with your wife having the only key. If this happens, please let us know about the thoughts. Also, it would be a good idea to let your wife know about this so she can help if needed."
You jokers who think a POSSIBLE restriction on gun ownership because of PTSD is reason to go around telling vets to NOT get treatment are damn fools.
Full of "coulds, mights, mays, possiblies" etc.
I agree with CrazyMJB. If a vet has PTSD, he/she needs to get help. Most of you clowns have no idea what it is like to have PTSD, but it is a fun buzzword, huh?
I see the VA regularly, they diagnosed PTSD a few years ago, I have had absolutely no problem buying or selling firearms.
Some of you forget about the vet who shot Chis Kyle, he had severe PTSD, was undergoing treatment for it. Should he have been able to go to a shooting range? Yup. Should his rights have been revoked? Nope. Did his PTSD have anything to do with the murders? Who knows, but it certainly will be used in his defense. For all I know, he may have shot them because of a heated argument or any other reason. He may not have been around the bend due to PTSD. But one thing is for certain, his life was miserable having PTSD.
Should Our Fearless Leader be linking or creating the language to link PTSD with potential gun control? Definitely not.
When the VA diagnosed me, the doc asked if I had any guns. When I said I did, he told me "If you have ANY, even passing thoughts, of suicide, the best thing you can do is move those guns out of the house, or have them locked up with your wife having the only key. If this happens, please let us know about the thoughts. Also, it would be a good idea to let your wife know about this so she can help if needed."
You jokers who think a POSSIBLE restriction on gun ownership because of PTSD is reason to go around telling vets to NOT get treatment are damn fools.
At ease OK. I think this whole conversation got misunderstood. I stated I know vets that say don't go to the VA because they are worried about losing their fire arms if they are diagnosed with PTSD. What I meant to point out is there is a conotation out there among vets that their VA recordsd are viewable by other gov agencies and they are worried about it......and I cited an article that backs that up. Wether it is true or not is left to be seen I guess under OBUMMERCARE but the conotation is still out there about this.
Glad you got help. SOunds liek you got a good VA doc....congrats....and thanks for your service. FOR ME PERSONALLY.....and I'm talking about ME PERSONALLY......I will never set foot in a VA building for health care..........a friend of mine's wife (2 tour vet) got all screwed up with their stupid mental health docs and is now with a civilian doc getting better. I can chose for myself and chose to stay away from the damn VA.
Here is a list of reasons an individual can be flagged as a PP.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/identify-prohibited-persons.html
The VA can deem you incompetent to manage your finances, hence the fifth item down. Show us how PTSD or any other mental health condition triggers PP status.
For the last time........I never said it definately did trigger PP status. I said the conotation out there among many veterans is that it can as I know many that feel that way. My personal reason for not going tothe VA for any reason is I personally feel that their health care is sub par......my friends wife is proof of it as I have personal knowledge of it. And as RockIT is proof that there are some good ones out there that is awesome for him.......but I think that is the exception.
However.......can you show me proof that PTSD or any other mental health condintion definately will NOT cause a VA mental health care profession al to declare you unfit to manage your own finances?
RockIt
Banned
Whacko, can you show me PROOF that owning a firearm is NEVER going to be hazardous to your health? Of course not, no one has a crystal ball. Most of us believe that we will never be in a situation or condition in which owning a firearm would become hazardous to our longevity. The point is, they have not been doing it, whether at some time in the future they MIGHT is another story.
About the VA: I have been seeing the VA for about 30 years now. The VA varies from region to region, a LOT. A very simple example is that many other regions will prescribe Crestor, a very popular anti cholesterol drug. The NE region would not do it at all until just recently, after the vet has tried two other statins with no success. If anyone thinks the VA operates the same across the country they are sadly mistaken.
I would be careful about using that NEVER word if I were you. You just may discover that if Obamacare survives, your best bet in medical care might be the VA. When you retire, it could very easily be your best bet for prescription drug coverage.
If your veteran friends are mostly from the NE, I can understand their feelings, I was appalled at what goes on around here compared to other parts of the country. Lots of lip service about respecting vets, blah, blah, blah. But some of the attitudes in this area evidence themselves in the VA facilities. The worst one I saw was at Providence. The guy signing in ahead of me was told by some gov nipple sucker that he was "late" for an appointment, had to be there 45 minutes before his scheduled appt, and that if he was "late" again, "they" could take away his benefits. He was actually there, at the window, 25 minutes before his scheduled appointment. Being a pugilistic, cantankerous sort of fellow, I set the nipple sucker straight about who could take away a veterans benefits. Certainly not some clerk sitting at a window. It got real ugly, gov employees being what they are when they THINK they are handing out a freebie. There is nothing free about VA benefits.
About the VA: I have been seeing the VA for about 30 years now. The VA varies from region to region, a LOT. A very simple example is that many other regions will prescribe Crestor, a very popular anti cholesterol drug. The NE region would not do it at all until just recently, after the vet has tried two other statins with no success. If anyone thinks the VA operates the same across the country they are sadly mistaken.
I would be careful about using that NEVER word if I were you. You just may discover that if Obamacare survives, your best bet in medical care might be the VA. When you retire, it could very easily be your best bet for prescription drug coverage.
If your veteran friends are mostly from the NE, I can understand their feelings, I was appalled at what goes on around here compared to other parts of the country. Lots of lip service about respecting vets, blah, blah, blah. But some of the attitudes in this area evidence themselves in the VA facilities. The worst one I saw was at Providence. The guy signing in ahead of me was told by some gov nipple sucker that he was "late" for an appointment, had to be there 45 minutes before his scheduled appt, and that if he was "late" again, "they" could take away his benefits. He was actually there, at the window, 25 minutes before his scheduled appointment. Being a pugilistic, cantankerous sort of fellow, I set the nipple sucker straight about who could take away a veterans benefits. Certainly not some clerk sitting at a window. It got real ugly, gov employees being what they are when they THINK they are handing out a freebie. There is nothing free about VA benefits.
RockIt
Banned
BTW, Whacko, when it comes to Shrinks, they are a bunch that can be plain dangerous. My sister in law is one of them, I would not let her treat a pet hamster, let alone a human being. Like all things, there are some good ones, some not so good, and some that should be committed.
Cool....as long as the guys here on NES understand I did not recommend to my vet brothers to stay away from the VS if you own fire arms and are having problems that might be PTSD. My whole point was it is a common feeling among my vet brothers that the VA turns mental records over and it may cause loss of fire arms.......don't know if it is true or not.......but the opinion is rampant among vets.
And as far as the VA is concerned......we'll see if my opinion changes but for now I think it is a broken system. My opinion.....based on people I know and their real experiences not what I've "heard".
RockIt
Banned
"Rampant opinions". Well damn, opinions are like aholes, we all have one. Anti gunners have an "opinion" that guns cause violence, do you go around spreading that one too? I can tell you what is "rampant", the number of vets I see at the VA clinic everytime I go for an appointment. The numbers of vets making use of the system has increased dramatically.
I have an opinion about private medical care. It sucks. From personal experience, a heart attack with classic symptoms misdiagnosed so I was sent home. No, I did not have any recourse, the medical profession in Michigan polices itself. So it was decided by a panel of 2 docs and nurse that the doc had not done anything that could be considered malpractice. Acute appendicitis, misdiagnosed, sent home. Systemic infection, sent home. Lucky for me I came around after I passed out for a few hours and hauled myself into a different hospital.
I also have an opinion about the VA. Not too bad, not perfect either. After the heart attack, had PVC's (premature ventricular contractions) that left me exhausted a few hours after waking up. Private docs told me I would have to learn to adjust. This was my first visit to the VA, they figured it out within a week. Private doc prescribed a medication that I was allergic to, sneezing like there was no tomorrow. Complained, he told me that I would adjust eventually. Saw the VA, they said, yup, you are allergic to it, take this drug, does the same thing. Problem fixed.
Yea, after 65 years a person learns a thing or three about what is the truth and what is not. One of those big truths is that docs these days in private practice have to see a LOT of patients in one day to run a viable business. That is why the doc rushes into the little cubicle, and breezes out about 4 minutes later. When I see the VA, there is never a rush, a lot of questions about health issues, how ya doing? Any problems with this or that? Etc. And yup, I see a private cardiologist, he is in a huge hurry, all the time.
Tell ya about those rumors, everyone loves to tear apart anything that has to do with the gov. It just feels good to do it. Most of the time it is warranted. But until you have some personal experience with the VA, you shouldn't be repeating things that you hear from your vet friends, it is just secondhand opinion.
Ive heard and had good experiences with the doctors at the VA, it is the system that supports them, makes appointments, handles funding, etc that blows.
Mike
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Mike
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TOM1960
Banned
Or tried to renew their LTC or FID?
RockIt
Banned
About four months ago. Also applied for and received a C&R.
Anyone thinking that MA is linked into the VA has their head so far up their butt, it is highly doubtful they will ever see sunshine again.
Comments like yours do nothing but flame rumors. You don't actually KNOW but you pose the question as if it MIGHT be happening.
If you know of (1) vet who has been denied an LTC/FID because of the VA database and not having been ADJUDICATED as mentally incompetent, I will give you 45 minutes to gather a crowd in Copley Square, then I will kiss your butt.
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You got it Mike. Nothing new, it is always the morons in the rear with the gear who try to make life miserable.
Glad the system works for you. For now, at least.
With the nice people in the White House, federal and certain state legislatures, you will see why the advice of the paranoid know nothing morons was based on sensible predictions of what is likely to happen next.
This is NOT to say that avoiding seeing a doctor for mental health is a good idea - merely that one needs to consider the high likelihood that those visits will be documented and at a later time used to deny veterans their second amendment rights.
For example, at the MA legislative hearings, the committee was quite obviously in favor of introducing legislation to deny LTC's to people with "mental health issues"... and where will they get that data from?
In the meantime, enjoy the fact that nothing happened YET, and feel free to base all your decisions on the happy assumption that things will not get worse.
TOM1960
Banned
Well, in case you may not be aware, our dear nanny Martha Coakley's goons most likely snoop through websites such as NES. If they believe they found some type of "loophole", it is a sure bet that they will take action to close it. Establishing a link to the VA will not be much of a challenge for IT professionals hired by the government to do so.
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