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NSSF filed vs AGO!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CAR, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. Drix

    Drix

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    I called about a dozen shops in my area- the lower was pre Healey but post 94, nobody would touch it. General rule of thumb as I've understood it and has been reinforced to me is post ban AR's are ftf only.
     

  2. Dadstoys

    Dadstoys NES Member

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    In a perfect and just world you would be correct.
    In MA. however , she could order airstrikes on every LTC holder in the state and they would find it constitutional .
     
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  3. Boston4567

    Boston4567 NES Member

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    That might be true, but I'm correct regardless of how just or unjust the world is ;).

    The NSSF federal suit is useful, but it has given people false hope. It cannot give people the relief they want - the elimination of Maura's edict. The only possible way for us to get that, however unlikely, was through the state court system. And the delay in pursuing that action in favor of a federal one has greatly decreased the already-slim likelihood of getting it overturned.
     
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  4. Dench

    Dench

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    If you people dont understand it you clearly have less than ordinary intelligence like myself
     
  5. Dadstoys

    Dadstoys NES Member

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    You are correct in that it would be the proper procedure .
    But there is a reason that one or two of our legal eagles here call it the MA. marsupial court.
    If I recall correctly in the case against her regarding Glocks , our side wasn't even allowed to present their case.
    They ruled for her out of hand.
    There has never once been a 2A case in MA. at least that I'm aware of that has gotten a fair shake.
    When you already know the outcome of step A, go directly to step B instead of wasting time and limited funds.
     
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  6. Boston4567

    Boston4567 NES Member

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    With your step B in this scenario (federal court), it is literally impossible to get the relief you want. The court doesn't have the authority. It is hard to imagine a greater waste of time and limited funds than pursuing the impossible rather than pursuing the highly unlikely.
     
  7. Dadstoys

    Dadstoys NES Member

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    I'll defer to the folks that do this stuff for a living.
     
  8. Charles Luo

    Charles Luo NES Member

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    Does it mean we don't need to pin the muzzle break to a Tavor X95 since it is not an "assault weapon"? And barrel/rifle length just need to be longer than 16/26 inch.

     
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  9. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    Heh...
    unfortunately the “features test” is still a thing.
     
  10. Charles Luo

    Charles Luo NES Member

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    But Tavor has no pistol grip. The only feature is the flash suppressor. Or I missed something?
     
  11. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    Er.. “no pistol grip”?

    I wasn’t aware that the bark-buster made that grip “not-a-pistol-grip”

    It’s certainly not a thumb-hole grip.
     
  12. SgtHal75

    SgtHal75 NES Member

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    I agree, u can make the same argument with a vector.....
     
  13. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    Yet again, proving how insanely stupid the AWB laws are.
     
  14. Horrible

    Horrible NES Member

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    Thought that it was all about “copies and duplicates”? Otherwise we would still be able to buy massified ARs
     
  15. sschevy

    sschevy Instructor Dealer NES Member

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    It “protrudes beneath the action of the weapon” so yes the Tavor does have a pistol grip
     
  16. Charles Luo

    Charles Luo NES Member

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    Same thought here. If Tavor is already defined as not an "assault weapon", why still using the feature test?
     
  17. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    That’s part of it.

    There’s two sections: the features tests, and the “copies or duplicates” test.

    Anything that meets either is an “assault weapon”

    The current question is if massified ARs count as “copies or duplicates”
     
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  18. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    My reading is that it’s not an “assault weapon” under the “copies or duplicates” part, but still subject to the evil features tests.
     
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  19. Charles Luo

    Charles Luo NES Member

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    I see. Thanks.
     
  20. Horrible

    Horrible NES Member

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    My interpretation as well. I was just trying to make the point that Mora’s dictate is arbitrary and capricious all the way around.

    The fact that this has been upheld for as long as it has underscores how political and broken our court system is.
     
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  21. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    The AG can't change MGL and the "evil features" are part of MGL passed by the legislature.

    Her diarrhea of the pen/mouth can't do away with that no matter what she spews from her pie-hole or keyboard.
     
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  22. 67ray

    67ray NES Member

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    Why not? DOn't Federal courts remand issues to State Courts? Or make orders like the California state mag ban that was put on hold for ~1 week this year?
     
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  23. roccoracer

    roccoracer NES Member

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    I just purchased a HK416D .22 from a dealer. It has a flash hider and adjustable stock etc. The dealer said (I know dealers dont know the laws generally) that .22 rimfire is exempt from the assualt weapons ban." Maura said so in a letter".
    Was it a legal buy?
     
  24. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    See my post # 921.

    Per MGL the only exemption for .22LR is wrt a tube-fed magazine. Everything else has to follow the same laws as a .223/.308/7.62x39/etc. AG's BS is irrelevant to MGL.
     
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  25. roccoracer

    roccoracer NES Member

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    I guess I will pin it. Damn, too good to be true.
     
  26. C. Stockwell

    C. Stockwell

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    To remand something is to send it back from whence it came. The only Federal court that can remand a case back to a state court is SCOTUS if a case progresses first through the state court system and then goes to SCOTUS. Judge Hillman in Worcester can't tell the SJC or the Worcester County Superior Court what to do with this case.

    That being said, I don't buy @Boston4567 's argument that there's literally nothing a Federal lawsuit can accomplish. Federal courts normally use state law when making decisions. The plaintiffs' argument in this case is that the AG overstepped her constitutional and statutory bounds. A Federal judge can examine Mass state precedent and law and make that determination when applying Massachusetts law. Put it this way, this case is past the motion to dismiss stage. If there was nothing for Judge Hillman to rule on, nothing for him to decide, the case wouldn't have survived the motion to dismiss stage of litigation as that's more or less the question Federal judges ask when examining a motion to dismiss: is there a plausible question of law or fact? If you really want to learn more (I don't suggest normal people doing this as its very boring), look up Twombley and Iqbal.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the case hasn't been removed from Federal to state court. If what @Boston4567 is true and there was literally no issue of Federal law to deal with or a diversity issue (as in interstate diversity), then the case would have to have been removed from Federal court to the state court. Removal is a formal process that defendants can motion for if there's no Federal question or the parties aren't from different states. That hasn't happened here and we're beyond the stage where the AG would've moved for removal - meaning there's some question of Federal law here that isn't best answered in state court.

    There's a number of advantages to getting a case into Federal court. Normally, its faster than progressing through state courts. I don't know what's up with the Mass state cases in Mass Superior Court so I don't know if that advantage is manifesting here. Federal case law has precedent value in Federal court (here, 1st Circuit) and is only of persuasive value in state court. If you're going to make an extremely complex legal argument, you're probably better off doing that in Federal court as Federal judges see more complex cases more often.
     
  27. Boston4567

    Boston4567 NES Member

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    You're speaking mostly in generalities here, and I don't disagree with the general points you're making as such. But I was addressing the specifics of this case, and those general points don't apply to the specifics of this case, having read through all of the pleadings from both sides in both this case as well as the CCGW state case.

    What we really care about is getting Maura's edict overturned. In order to avoid jurisdictional issues, the NSSF case has been so narrowly scoped to federal due process constitutional issues that even if they win on literally every point in contention, that cannot happen. Maura did move for removal if I recall correctly, and the only reason she wasn't successful is because it was so narrowly scoped.
     
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  28. C. Stockwell

    C. Stockwell

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    Think about it this way. There's a high probability the state case will trudge through state courts getting shat on, similar to Caetano. If that happens, and if SCOTUS doesn't come to the rescue, don't you want a Plan B, i.e. this Federal case?
     
  29. Boston4567

    Boston4567 NES Member

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    Well the problem is, this case can't accomplish anything because the only points still in contention are whether Maura's edict applies to certain specific, named models of guns (the RDB, M&P 15-22, Tavor, etc.). The lawsuit's contention is that her edict is unconstitutionally vague as applied to those models. But I don't think it is, and those models are being openly sold in the state already, so even if they win there will be no change in the status quo. New AR-15s will still not be able to be sold in the state. Her edict will still be fully in effect. Even if the NSSF wins spectacularly.

    I would have no problem with this lawsuit if the NSSF had thrown its resources behind a state lawsuit first, back three years ago when there was a chance of preserving the status quo and reining Maura in.

    Edit: And Caetano was different, because the primary right being violated there was a federal constitutional right. Maura's edict is about exceeding statutory authority under state law, so only state courts can stop it.
     
  30. SFC13557

    SFC13557 NES Member

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    I bought a Tavor X95 last summer, according to the AG they are LEGAL in Ma. I'm sure Four Season'w wouldn't be selling them if Carl thought there was any way Maura could come after him.
     

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