NRA Instructor's question

[andrew]

I am a Basic Pistol instructor and I am being asked to generate and lead a curriculum for my club. The template that was suggested was the "FIRST Steps Pistol" course. This is something new to me and I can't find a good description of what it is online (even on the NRA Instructor's Portal). I am pretty sure that the idea is to provide a good initial education on safe gun (pistol?) handling in a reasonable time (3-4 hours).

My questions are:
- How does one go about getting an instructor's rating for FIRST Steps Pistol?
- Can the course be completed successfully (in the NRA's eyes) with a non-.22 pistol? Basic Pistol is fairly adamant that the course should be taught with a .22, and for the most part, I agree. My club got a grant to buy some club guns to teach this course and is looking for some clarity on what they need.

Anyway, I know that I could just call Jon over at GOAL or somebody I know less as GONH, but I wondered if you guys had any idea/

 

[Mil-Dot]

Hi Andrew,
When you were certified in NRA Basic Pistol you were also certified for the NRA First Steps Pistol Orientation. The lesson plans should be in the same binder as your Basic Pistol lesson plans.

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

What he said~ Go to our home page or the NRA descriptions.

 

[andrew]

Hi Andrew,
When you were certified in NRA Basic Pistol you were also certified for the NRA First Steps Pistol Orientation. The lesson plans should be in the same binder as your Basic Pistol lesson plans.

D'oh! And here is is! Thanks all.

 

[willbdavis]

From my perspective, as an NRA Instructor, any class that doesn't provide hands-on instruction with live firing exercises isn't worth crap. I refuse to teach anything other than the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course. I know it is long, but I find students who take the other courses don't feel prepared to enter the world of handgun ownership.

I know you're in NH. I'm in MA. As long as MA is going to require training for an LTC application they should at least require useful training.

My two cents.

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

We include three hours of law with Attorney John Chapman in our NRA certified Personal Protection in the Home. We teach many courses but my feeling is if you own, possess, transfer or discharge a firearm you really need to know the law.

 

[Mike-Mike]

I refuse to teach anything other than the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course.

As long as MA is going to require training for an LTC application they should at least require useful training.

So would you be against lifting the training requirement for students?

Would you run a 15yo kid through the basic pistol program so he would leave the class with exactly zero information on using the shotgun he is about to buy?

ETA: Would you also refuse a Home Firearms Safety class to someone who lived in a home with guns but had no interest in shooting one?

 

[willbdavis]

Mike: I'm not sure how I feel about the training requirement to own a gun. I don't have a training requirement for exercising my 1st Amendment rights. I DO think safety training is a really GOOD idea. I don't like to be on the range with people who don't fully appreicate safety.

I'm not certified as a shotgun instructor. I'd direct that person to the appropriate resource.

OK, I will modify my previous statement: I would teach nothing less than the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course to anyone who a) did not have extensive pistol safety knowledge already and b) intended to use a pistol. I think there are appropriate places for the HFS course (spouses are a good example), but I think often it is provided as a shortcut to meeting the MA training requirement.

I'm also a Mass Wildlife Hunter Education Instructor. I think this is an appropriate requirement for people who wish to go hunting. I'm not really sure it should be used to meet the requirement for an LTC, though.

 

[FLHTC]

I’ve been an NRA certified instructor for well over 27 years and I can tell you it’s getting harder and harder to find gun clubs that will allow you to use the range to teach students. I’m talking about clubs that you’re a member of. I spoke with one instructor that teaches using a pellet pistol, it may not be optimal but what choice does he have?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I’ve been an NRA certified instructor for well over 27 years and I can tell you it’s getting harder and harder to find gun clubs that will allow you to use the range to teach students. I’m talking about clubs that you’re a member of. I spoke with one instructor that teaches using a pellet pistol, it may not be optimal but what choice does he have?

It's not that hard to find clubs with training programs that will let an interested instructor get involved. What is difficult is finding clubs that let an instructor use the club as a venue for a personal business when the club culture is "volunteer run activities for the benefit of the club".

 

[FLHTC]

It's not that hard to find clubs with training programs that will let an interested instructor get involved. What is difficult is finding clubs that let an instructor use the club as a venue for a personal business when the club culture is "volunteer run activities for the benefit of the club".

Yes but their are certain liabilaties to go hand in hand.

 

[MisterHappy]

It's not that hard to find clubs with training programs that will let an interested instructor get involved. What is difficult is finding clubs that let an instructor use the club as a venue for a personal business when the club culture is "volunteer run activities for the benefit of the club".

The bolded part is the salient part. If I were a member of a club where range time for members was restricted because anyone (member or not) was using the club facilities to make a buck for themselves (even if a portion was given back as an honorarium to the Club) that would likely be a problem.

At our club, the training courses are for the benefit of the Club ( e.g. Basic Pistol) or "our sport" ( e.g. Hunter Safety). The people that run the courses aren't profiting, and were someone to do so, it would cause friction....which, as we all know, is a never-heard-of thing at gun clubs!

As to what's an appropriate course....there's a diffence between what's "permitted" and what's best. Ideally, everyone who took an LTC course would have a working familiarity with all action types of all arms..(beacuse they can have them all) ..but that's not a reasonable expectation. We have to assume (yes, I know what that means) that a person with the smarts to pass a LTC Course will have the smarts to ask for help when they encounter a long arm that is new to them.

It's too bad that the culture of the knowledge being handed down from parent to child is passe'.

 

[willbdavis]

Where facilities are limited I can see how closing ranges to hold a course could cause friction (for profit or otherwise). Some clubs, on the other hand, have extensive facilities. Using a single range out of a dozen or so shouldn't present a significant inconvenience to the membership. It seems to me the important thing is to be promoting safe shooting sports, which really ought to be the primary purpose of any legit gun club. What does it matter if the instructor is making a few dollars? Or did we all suddenly become communists?

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

Closing certain range facilities to courses ONLY are specifically noted in our rules. Never had a conflict!

 

[Len-2A Training]

I’ve been an NRA certified instructor for well over 27 years and I can tell you it’s getting harder and harder to find gun clubs that will allow you to use the range to teach students. I’m talking about clubs that you’re a member of. I spoke with one instructor that teaches using a pellet pistol, it may not be optimal but what choice does he have?

Yes, you are right and many clubs only have 1 class/month or quarter with small numbers, not filling the needs of the public.

It's not that hard to find clubs with training programs that will let an interested instructor get involved. What is difficult is finding clubs that let an instructor use the club as a venue for a personal business when the club culture is "volunteer run activities for the benefit of the club".

True, but I belonged to one club for 24 yrs that NEVER gave even one class. No club will absorb my expenses in running a class, provide the guns, equipment, ammo, supplies and indemnify ME as an instructor. They want proof of insurance that will cover THE CLUB at MY EXPENSE, payment per student, etc.

All of us need a source of income to pay our bills, and if you love guns and teaching and can make some money at it, it shouldn't be a sin.

Yes but their are certain liabilities to go hand in hand.

Yup, and no club will cover OURS as an instructor.

BTW: I am NOT in favor of shutting down a range so an instructor can run their business either. One can be considerate and work with members so that everyone can shoot and enjoy the facilities at the same time I (or another instructor) is teaching.

 

[DickWanner]

Mike: I'm not sure how I feel about the training requirement to own a gun. I don't have a training requirement for exercising my 1st Amendment rights. I DO think safety training is a really GOOD idea. I don't like to be on the range with people who don't fully appreicate safety.

Neither do I, so I don't shoot at places where there are others who are unsafe. Also, you're saying you know how you should feel about training requirements, but you're holding out because you want a false sense of security.

I'm not certified as a shotgun instructor. I'd direct that person to the appropriate resource.

You don't have to be certified to show a student how to load and unload a pump-action.

OK, I will modify my previous statement: I would teach nothing less than the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course to anyone who a) did not have extensive pistol safety knowledge already and b) intended to use a pistol. I think there are appropriate places for the HFS course (spouses are a good example), but I think often it is provided as a shortcut to meeting the MA training requirement.

Is there anything such as a shortcut when it comes to infringement of rights? What do you honestly feel a student needs to know/learn to own a gun? Isn't a safety class about safety? What about long guns when teaching Basic Pistol? You need to consider that most states do not require ANY license or training to own/purchase a firearm, where are all the accidental deaths and injuries in those states?

You either believe in individual rights or you don't, and you have to let your irrational fears go to do that.

I'm also a Mass Wildlife Hunter Education Instructor. I think this is an appropriate requirement for people who wish to go hunting. I'm not really sure it should be used to meet the requirement for an LTC, though.

If it makes it easier for an individual to obtain their FID/LTC, I'm all for it.

 

[MisterHappy]

Please don't think that I think that exclusivity is a good idea...the more the merrier!

My point was that from a point of internal politics at some clubs, one person ( or group) deriving any percieved or actual benefit at the "expense" of the club would cause trouble, and it's easier to avoid it than deal with it.

SRGC closes it range for Basic Pistol, Junior Rifle, Scouts, etc., but again, they're not benefiting (financailly) any person other than the students. Each club has its own "culture" and some are more receptive than others.

 

[DickWanner]

All of us need a source of income to pay our bills, and if you love guns and teaching and can make some money at it, it shouldn't be a sin.

People have no idea how difficult this is, on both the retail and training side. I've had experience with both and I can say with certainty that it is impossible to support a business off of training alone. An individual may be able to supplement their income with a few training classes, but to live solely off of offering training courses isn't possible.

 

[Cabinetman]

FLHTC, shooting an actual firearm is a REQUIREMENT for the NRA class. BB or Pellet guns are not allowed. As an alternative, however, when I took my original class many decades ago, we actually shot in the classroom in the town hall. The instructor had a revolver and had loaded up some empty brass with primers only and some type of plastic plug as the bullet. The target was a cardboard box with a target strapped to it. The revolver was a heavy S&W and that primer went "pop" with some authority. The plastic slug worked like a wadcutter with a lot less power, of course. That was pretty ingenious, I guess, but didn't really introduce me actual recoil of a firearm.

Regarding the legal issues facing gun-owners, notice that the NRA course has NO chapters with ANY mention of laws other than maybe a passing mention. The NRA doesn't want to get into that with students and neither do I. When I hold my classes, I do take a few minutes to bring to their attention the morass that the legal system is with regards to firearms and that it's the responsibility of each student to make sure they were in compliance with the laws as they go forward in this hobby.

I also use my local club as the range when I hold a class. I usually hold them on Sundays becasue that's the one weekend day the range is usually quiet. And, my classes are usually no more than 8 or so keeping any disruption to a minimum. I also have a private property that I've been able to use from time to time but the liability issues just scare me even though it's out in the boonies.

Finally, I ordered up some of the "Eddie Eagle" program literature and am working out a schedule with the town library to offer an Eddie Eagle class to any child who signs up. They're actually open to it and I've also done other firearms based productions there as well. I was ready for an argument but wasn't I surprised that they were actually happy to accomodate me! I imagine that any good, well established club could hold this EE course, too.

Rome

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Yup, and no club will cover OURS as an instructor.

Not totally true. I have read the policy my club has (since I was the one who dealt with the agent). The club's policy covers individuals acting on behalf of the club - which is quite easy to prove to be the case when the course fee is paid with a check to the club. It's also a reason why I do course as a volunteer for the club, but never when not acting on behalf of the club.

Homeowners will generally cover volunteer activity for non profits, but not private business activity run for a fee.

It seems to me the important thing is to be promoting safe shooting sports, which really ought to be the primary purpose of any legit gun club. What does it matter if the instructor is making a few dollars? Or did we all suddenly become communists?

It's not a matter of communism, but a gun club (of the non-commercial nature) is a team. If the people who do carpentry, repairs, painting, etc. are doing so as volunteers it may not be good for good will to have others spend their time at the club using it to make money and not contribute to the upkeep. The only real solution is a rental fee that reflects the true cost, with overhead, to the club - and is comparable to what any outsider would need to pay for facility rental. When my club rented out the clubhouse in the MA for a UT class, we collected $350 for the morning.

 

[DickWanner]

Regarding the legal issues facing gun-owners, notice that the NRA course has NO chapters with ANY mention of laws other than maybe a passing mention. The NRA doesn't want to get into that with students and neither do I. When I hold my classes, I do take a few minutes to bring to their attention the morass that the legal system is with regards to firearms and that it's the responsibility of each student to make sure they were in compliance with the laws as they go forward in this hobby.

Teaching the law is a REQUIREMENT in MA.

 

[M1911]

Not totally true. I have read the policy my club has (since I was the one who dealt with the agent). The club's policy covers individuals acting on behalf of the club - which is quite easy to prove to be the case when the course fee is paid with a check to the club. It's also a reason why I do course as a volunteer for the club, but never when not acting on behalf of the club.

Homeowners will generally cover volunteer activity for non profits, but not private business activity run for a fee.

I suspect that many part-time instructors are teaching without any liability insurance, and may not realize just how exposed they are.

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

We offer annual memberships to clubs in Maine for the use of their ranges and that boosts memberships and exposure to the clubs venue. Win win. Typically $10 per client cost and the clubs generally benefit 10 fold.

 

[willbdavis]

Dick, you're right. This thread, and another one today, have made me reconsider my stance on the training requirement. I have come to the conclusion that i firmly believe in the value of training but not in the right of the government to require it.

As far as only permitting volunteer training, the only club where I have seen this work is SRG. To my knowledge every other club has a pretty much dead training program. Hopkinton is trying to resurrect their training program, but as far as I know they only offer HFS, which really is too "lite" to be of much use (in my opinion.)

I guess, as the state's gun club members argue amongst themselves about volunteer versus paid, the commercial training entities like Mass Firearms School will fill the demand, and answer the question at the same time.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Rob, I'm glad that you are on top of that. I was a club BOD member for 14 years and I have reason to believe that this club (and 2 of my other gun clubs) did not have general liability insurance at all. I am only certain of BR&P, that they have insurance appropriate for the club, BOD and officers. BR&P is the only club (of 4 that I've belonged to) that puts no barriers/hassles in the way of members teaching there and does not charge instructors for the privilege. They also won't permit an instructor to take over a complete range or clubhouse to the exclusion of other members.

One of my prior clubs was sued and I was told by the president (he was bragging) that HE paid (IIRC) out of his pocket to settle part of the case . . . the club was sued and the local chief of police as well in that case (as he told me). So, I'd say it was a pretty fair guess that they didn't have any (or good) insurance.

In the meantime, many of my students have requested applications at BR&P and joined. So even if a club doesn't charge instructors/student, there is a huge pay-back to "open clubs" in the long run.

 

[willbdavis]

Good points, Len. I know that, whenever, wherever I teach a course, the hosting club usually gets a couple of new members out of it.

 

[DickWanner]

Dick, you're right. This thread, and another one today, have made me reconsider my stance on the training requirement. I have come to the conclusion that i firmly believe in the value of training but not in the right of the government to require it.

It's up to us as instructors to offer affordable and valuable training to anyone and everyone. They should want to train with us, not be forced to. If they don't want to train with us then we're doing it wrong. And you would be surprised that in most states where there is no licensing/training requirement that commercial training schools are very, very common. Hell, in most states where you can shoot in your backyard there are maybe a handful of shooting clubs in the entire state. There seems to be no lack of instructors nor people seeking training in those states either.

 

[bolt]

Yeah , MEXICO too