-
If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership The benefits pay for the membership many times over.
NRA Instructors And Conceal Carry in Boston
- Thread starter kid_fisto
- Start date
That's incorrect. In fact it would cost him exactly $0 and an hour of time if he already has his NRA and MSP certificates.
Every time we have a Boston thread it gets crapped up by people who don't live in the city, don't know what they're talking about, and just want to dump on Boston. Why don't you leave the Boston advice giving to people who actually understand how it works.
Boston is far from the worst town in which to get an LTC. Off the top of my head I can probably name 1-2 dozen towns that make their applicants bend over much farther than does Boston. When it comes right down to it, the problems with Boston are:
1) they issue restricted LTCs to most people. That won't change until LTCs become shall issue and even now Boston issues unrestricted LTC much more willingly than most 'Red' towns.
2) the stupid Moon Island test. Sure, It's a PITA, but it's trivial.
The all too common crap that you don't deal with in Boston:
Letters of reference
Letters to the chief
Notes from your doctor.
Lost or un-processed applications
Length of residency requirements
a lot of attitude
Okay, here's my list of towns WORSE than Boston. This only took five minutes. Give me a couple of hours and I can triple it.
1. Attleboro
2. Braintree
3. Brookline
4. Canton
5. Chicopee
6. Dartmouth
7. Dracut
8. Everett
9. Lawrence
10. Lowell
11. Newton
12. Peabody
13. Quincy
14. Rowley
15. Salem
16. Scituate
17. Sharon
18. Somerville
19. Springfield
20. Waltham
21. Watertown
22. Westwood
23. Weymouth
24. Worcester
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
- Messages
- 16,367
- Likes
- 4,835
Even if you triple your list, about 80% of the cities and towns in MA are "better." Only about .08% of the population of Boston has a license at all and most of them are restricted in some way. Hard to justify those numbers.
There's only one town (Montgomery, population 720) that issues fewer licenses per capita than Boston. That tells you something.
Last edited:
Are we really trying to excuse the hell that Boston puts you thru to get an LTC? Sorry, not excuse, simply justify living in Boston? By comparing it to more f*** show cities that deserve....
0 <--- That much of your tax money.
All that list of red and green towns is a color coordinated guide to cities that I will never move voluntarily give a single tax dollar to, ever. It is also a guide to towns that deserve to have the CLEO fired and thrown out on the street.![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
No offense, jump thru all the hoops you want, I'll stick in my town that is pro 2A and only 15 minutes from where you are. I like not having to do a damn magic trick for cops to speak to me concerning my constitutional right.
0 <--- That much of your tax money.
All that list of red and green towns is a color coordinated guide to cities that I will never move voluntarily give a single tax dollar to, ever. It is also a guide to towns that deserve to have the CLEO fired and thrown out on the street.
No offense, jump thru all the hoops you want, I'll stick in my town that is pro 2A and only 15 minutes from where you are. I like not having to do a damn magic trick for cops to speak to me concerning my constitutional right.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2005
- Messages
- 47,515
- Likes
- 33,527
If you are actively teaching intro gun courses, you have as strong a "business related" reason as an individual who takes the deposits from a business to the bank at night. Consider the situation - you are publicly announcing the date, time and location of a class to which you will deliver multiple unloaded handguns that will be on display for familiarization purposes and doing so in a quasi-public environment where people not known to you, who may not even be registered for the class, may enter the teaching facility.
This is really not that much different that publicly announcing that you are going to have a showing of collectable Swiss watches and gemstones and telling the public when and where these items will be available for heisting.
Last edited:
Well, truth be told, did you think about the Moon Island problem? That's a factor in issuance rates, as well. The whole test bullshit is a huge deterrent to applicants.
-Mike
No doubt Quincy is included for "age discrimination"?
If you are under 25 yo you automatically will be restricted. Over 25, no problem.
I guess people get "automatic wisdom and maturity" on their 25th birthday??
If you are under 25 yo you automatically will be restricted. Over 25, no problem.
I guess people get "automatic wisdom and maturity" on their 25th birthday??
Are we really trying to excuse the hell that Boston puts you thru to get an LTC? Sorry, not excuse, simply justify living in Boston? By comparing it to more f*** show cities that deserve....
0 <--- That much of your tax money.
All that list of red and green towns is a color coordinated guide to cities that I will never move voluntarily give a single tax dollar to, ever. It is also a guide to towns that deserve to have the CLEO fired and thrown out on the street.
No offense, jump thru all the hoops you want, I'll stick in my town that is pro 2A and only 15 minutes from where you are. I like not having to do a damn magic trick for cops to speak to me concerning my constitutional right.
No one's excusing anything about Boston's licensing practices. Just trying to get the current, correct information to Boston residents who want to get their restrictions removed, and countering the misinformation offered by people who'd rather lash out than help.
Ah, but I do understand how it works in many of these towns even though I don't live in them. Keep in mind that I have a great deal of empirical data on what these towns do and require. That Quincy made the list is no accident. Sure, they're great about issuing LTCs - until they're not. The letter to the chief is utter BS, but that's not why they're on the list.
Greetings All, I may be the one that Knuckle Dragger is referring to in post #12 above. When Mass. changed the laws in '98 I said screw it, I'm not bending over like that. I was hoping that the laws would be overturned or rationally modified and that our good friends and saviors at NRA, GOAL and SAF would save the day. It's a good thing I didn't hold my breath. My thoughts on that are a story for another day. Nor will I go into a dissertation here about my reasons, the law, civil rights or philosophy.
I've been informally instructing firearm safety and marksmanship since I was 13, first in Scouts and on my town's PAL rifle team, then later with friends and family as the years went by. When I was a kid, the adults in charge thought I had the chops and the maturity to help and they actively recruited me to assist them with my peers. Off and on I've clocked in 40+ years of experience.
Since my daughter has come to the age where I think she'll benefit from acquiring the martial art of marksmanship, I decided to swallow my pride and get off the dime to get legit in the Commonwealth. To that end, over the last 5 or 6 years, I've been building my CV so that my application with BPD would go smoothly and trouble free. My dad always told me to pick one's fights carefully and wisely, as well as not going looking for a fight that may not be to your liking. Scouting taught me to be prepared. Life taught me to be courteous, respectful, diligent and tenacious. If one has a sense of entitlement one is likely to be very disappointed in life's journey. Constitutional and fundamental human rights notwithstanding, sometimes you have to fight and/or play the game for what is rightfully yours. Life can suck that way.
I can't claim to have any inside dope on what BPD is looking for exactly, nor do I have any knowledge of their Byzantine and Machiavellian protocols or prejudices. I went about my business in a pretty straight forward manner, with a considerable investment of my time and money. That investment I found both greatly beneficial and extremely worth my while. I regret not having done this earlier.
What I did over the last number of years is to take a few courses in concealed carry and self defense at well respected schools. I've attained certifications from the NRA for being an RSO and instructor for HFS, Pistol, Rifle, Personal Protection in the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home, with Shotgun instructor in the offing. I have LTCs for Utah, Florida and New Hampshire (all were attained prior to applying to BPD). My Maine LTC is being currently being processed and I'm pulling together the paperwork for Rhode Island (I estimate the package will be mailed in early September). The BFS certificate that I handed in to BPD with my package was from 2006.
Regarding the MSP certification to actually teach in the Commonwealth, it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. It now stands that one can't get the MSP cert without first having an LTC. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that was always the case. I spoke with the gal at MSP yesterday and she said that I can expect the cert in the mail this week as it was mailed out Friday (along with a bunch of others). Once I have that I can then get down to business, with the full blessing and grace of the Commonwealth. So, until I get the MSP cert, I've been all dressed up with nowhere to go. Fortunately, that's about to change and I’m greatly looking forward to teaching new people and introducing them to shooting safely, good marksmanship, and the responsibilities and mind frame for carrying a gun.
With each PD having different attitudes and criteria, your experience may be a lot different from the next guy's. In Boston, if you're a 21 year old with a brand spankin' new BFS certificate, even if you're a saint and a vet, don't be too disappointed if you're issued T&H only. Life isn't always fair, just or Constitutional. We can change that with time, effort, money and good legal precedent. That day is coming; be patient, lend a hand and persevere.
Demographics, experience and comportment are all factors that weigh heavily into any given PD’s decision making process. In my case, I’ve pretty much aged out of what some may consider problematic demographic characteristics and I have a life story and experience that most examiners wouldn’t find troubling. Having acquired significant, tangible bona fides, along with my particular circumstances, I was able to present a compelling, and ultimately successful case for issuing an unrestricted LTC. I spent close to half an hour with the licensing officer discussing my application and making my case.
As Bob Boudrie noted above in post #38, there are extremely good reasons for an instructor to be issued an unrestricted LTC if one is actively engaged in the business of firearms instruction. That said, and please believe me when I say that I hate the whole business of the hoops that one must jump through to be issued a permit in this state and the other discretionary licensing states. Self defense and access/possession of the most effective tools for meeting that goal must be viewed as an essential and fundamental human and civil right. We have a ways to go yet for that to happen but the day will come.
But just for fun, let me play Devil’s Advocate here for a minute and let’s take a walk in the other guys shoes. Most of us have been around the block a few times. We’ve all seen the hot heads, the doufusses, the “instant a**h***, just add alcohol” types, various and sundry whack jobs, the dudes that don’t think twice about muzzle sweeping the line with hot weapons and exhibit atrocious gun handling skills, and lastly the guys that can’t hit the broad side of a barn if they themselves are inside the barn. Seriously, if you were the one whose responsibility it is to issue them a permit and turn them loose on the public, wouldn’t that give you cause for some rather deep reflection? Everyone has a right and a duty to protect themselves, their loved ones and to an extent, our broader society. Still, as we’ve seen far too many times, there are some people out there that just can’t be trusted with any kind of weapon, be it a gun, a knife, a piece of cord, fertilizer or a car, to name but a few items. It’s unfortunate that liberty and freedom sometimes come with a very high price.
I've been informally instructing firearm safety and marksmanship since I was 13, first in Scouts and on my town's PAL rifle team, then later with friends and family as the years went by. When I was a kid, the adults in charge thought I had the chops and the maturity to help and they actively recruited me to assist them with my peers. Off and on I've clocked in 40+ years of experience.
Since my daughter has come to the age where I think she'll benefit from acquiring the martial art of marksmanship, I decided to swallow my pride and get off the dime to get legit in the Commonwealth. To that end, over the last 5 or 6 years, I've been building my CV so that my application with BPD would go smoothly and trouble free. My dad always told me to pick one's fights carefully and wisely, as well as not going looking for a fight that may not be to your liking. Scouting taught me to be prepared. Life taught me to be courteous, respectful, diligent and tenacious. If one has a sense of entitlement one is likely to be very disappointed in life's journey. Constitutional and fundamental human rights notwithstanding, sometimes you have to fight and/or play the game for what is rightfully yours. Life can suck that way.
I can't claim to have any inside dope on what BPD is looking for exactly, nor do I have any knowledge of their Byzantine and Machiavellian protocols or prejudices. I went about my business in a pretty straight forward manner, with a considerable investment of my time and money. That investment I found both greatly beneficial and extremely worth my while. I regret not having done this earlier.
What I did over the last number of years is to take a few courses in concealed carry and self defense at well respected schools. I've attained certifications from the NRA for being an RSO and instructor for HFS, Pistol, Rifle, Personal Protection in the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home, with Shotgun instructor in the offing. I have LTCs for Utah, Florida and New Hampshire (all were attained prior to applying to BPD). My Maine LTC is being currently being processed and I'm pulling together the paperwork for Rhode Island (I estimate the package will be mailed in early September). The BFS certificate that I handed in to BPD with my package was from 2006.
Regarding the MSP certification to actually teach in the Commonwealth, it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. It now stands that one can't get the MSP cert without first having an LTC. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that was always the case. I spoke with the gal at MSP yesterday and she said that I can expect the cert in the mail this week as it was mailed out Friday (along with a bunch of others). Once I have that I can then get down to business, with the full blessing and grace of the Commonwealth. So, until I get the MSP cert, I've been all dressed up with nowhere to go. Fortunately, that's about to change and I’m greatly looking forward to teaching new people and introducing them to shooting safely, good marksmanship, and the responsibilities and mind frame for carrying a gun.
With each PD having different attitudes and criteria, your experience may be a lot different from the next guy's. In Boston, if you're a 21 year old with a brand spankin' new BFS certificate, even if you're a saint and a vet, don't be too disappointed if you're issued T&H only. Life isn't always fair, just or Constitutional. We can change that with time, effort, money and good legal precedent. That day is coming; be patient, lend a hand and persevere.
Demographics, experience and comportment are all factors that weigh heavily into any given PD’s decision making process. In my case, I’ve pretty much aged out of what some may consider problematic demographic characteristics and I have a life story and experience that most examiners wouldn’t find troubling. Having acquired significant, tangible bona fides, along with my particular circumstances, I was able to present a compelling, and ultimately successful case for issuing an unrestricted LTC. I spent close to half an hour with the licensing officer discussing my application and making my case.
As Bob Boudrie noted above in post #38, there are extremely good reasons for an instructor to be issued an unrestricted LTC if one is actively engaged in the business of firearms instruction. That said, and please believe me when I say that I hate the whole business of the hoops that one must jump through to be issued a permit in this state and the other discretionary licensing states. Self defense and access/possession of the most effective tools for meeting that goal must be viewed as an essential and fundamental human and civil right. We have a ways to go yet for that to happen but the day will come.
But just for fun, let me play Devil’s Advocate here for a minute and let’s take a walk in the other guys shoes. Most of us have been around the block a few times. We’ve all seen the hot heads, the doufusses, the “instant a**h***, just add alcohol” types, various and sundry whack jobs, the dudes that don’t think twice about muzzle sweeping the line with hot weapons and exhibit atrocious gun handling skills, and lastly the guys that can’t hit the broad side of a barn if they themselves are inside the barn. Seriously, if you were the one whose responsibility it is to issue them a permit and turn them loose on the public, wouldn’t that give you cause for some rather deep reflection? Everyone has a right and a duty to protect themselves, their loved ones and to an extent, our broader society. Still, as we’ve seen far too many times, there are some people out there that just can’t be trusted with any kind of weapon, be it a gun, a knife, a piece of cord, fertilizer or a car, to name but a few items. It’s unfortunate that liberty and freedom sometimes come with a very high price.
MisterHappy
NES Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2009
- Messages
- 28,404
- Likes
- 17,587
Leitrim:
I was with you until the end.
Your Devil's Advocate analogy of the need for restrictions on all beacue of the (poor) actions of a few is the same as saying, "I can't hold my liquor; no beer for you."
If a PD issues an LTC to someone that uses a fierarm inappropriately at a future time, I'm pretty sure that there's no real "recourse" against the PD or any of its employees.
Your Devil's advocate supposition logically leads to "Since there may be a problem with one of these licensees in the future, the best thing to do is deny them all."
But, that's not the way it's supposed to work. The real problem is that there are no objective standards - Town A is like this; City B is like that. Unless and until there is a "shall issue" on LTCs (except for statutory disqualifiers) this problem will exist.
It's like saying "Paint the wall blue" to me - your vision of that color is differnet than mine, but as long as it's in the blue part of the spectrum, I can do whatever I like, and you have no grounds to complain.
Good luck.
I was with you until the end.
Your Devil's Advocate analogy of the need for restrictions on all beacue of the (poor) actions of a few is the same as saying, "I can't hold my liquor; no beer for you."
If a PD issues an LTC to someone that uses a fierarm inappropriately at a future time, I'm pretty sure that there's no real "recourse" against the PD or any of its employees.
Your Devil's advocate supposition logically leads to "Since there may be a problem with one of these licensees in the future, the best thing to do is deny them all."
But, that's not the way it's supposed to work. The real problem is that there are no objective standards - Town A is like this; City B is like that. Unless and until there is a "shall issue" on LTCs (except for statutory disqualifiers) this problem will exist.
It's like saying "Paint the wall blue" to me - your vision of that color is differnet than mine, but as long as it's in the blue part of the spectrum, I can do whatever I like, and you have no grounds to complain.
Good luck.
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,321
- Likes
- 258
Care to enlighten the proletariat?
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,321
- Likes
- 258
Not at this time
That's what I thought.
Seconded. Statements not backed by facts are merely opinions. I remember when the POS... oops, my bad... CoP Quincy used to have finally left a few years back. Not only did ALP's become the norm but it was also spread through word of mouth that people given restrictions by the former regime would be welcomed warmly if they reapplied.
