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NRA "Carry Guard" Self Defense insurance?

Here's a thread discussing the NRA's carry insurance vs. USCCA's. The NRA quit carrying adds for "the competition" and the NRA's insurance doesn't sound as good.

This is a tough one for me. I hate insurance because in the long run, unless I get really unlucky, they make money from me. OTOH, I hear that in MA, even if it's a totally clean shoot, unless there's overwhelming evidence/witnesses right there when the cops show up, I'll likely be arrested and spend $100,000 defending myself. The flip side is, statistics say I'll go my whole life without having to draw my gun. So, I'm finding the idea of carry insurance a tough call.

Here's USCCA's carry insurance site. The coverage looks pretty complete.
 
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cockpitbob said:
Here's a thread discussing the NRA's carry insurance vs. USCCA's. The NRA quit carrying adds for "the competition" and the NRA's insurance doesn't sound as good.

This is a tough one for me. I hate insurance because in the long run, unless I get really unlucky, they make money from me. OTOH, I hear that in MA, even if it's a totally clean shoot, unless there's overwhelming evidence/witnesses right there when the cops show up, I'll likely be arrested and spend $100,000 defending myself. The flip side is, statistics say I'll go my whole life without having to draw my gun. So, I'm finding the idea of carry insurance a tough call.
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Thanks for the link. I know where you're coming from on being torn about this. The chances of ever having to fire my carry at someone in self defense is minimal but if I ever had to, I know I couldn't afford the cost of legal defense.

That being said, the chance that my house will burn or I will get in an accident and need my insurance is still pretty slim although, I realize, most likely far higher than having to shoot someone in self defense.

I realize that insurance companies play on your fears about "what ifs" and as my dad used to say, "Insurance is nothing more than legalized extortion" to which I most heartily agree.
 
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The NRA just rolled this out and seems to offer less coverage than the USCCA insurance that has been out for some time.

I have the USCCA Self-Defense Shield coverage - www.usconcealedcarry.com/membership/

They offer a reduced rate for additional family members so have it for myself and wife who carry. Hope to never need it but really nice to know it's there if I do.
 
The question is does it cover you up front to pay a good lawyer or will they reimburse you later if you manage to beat the charge on your own dime. Makes a big difference when a good lawyer is going to need a boatload of money up front and if you don't have 100k in pocket change laying around you will wind up with budget representation with your life on the line.
 
firestorm said:
The question is does it cover you up front to pay a good lawyer or will they reimburse you later if you manage to beat the charge on your own dime. Makes a big difference when a good lawyer is going to need a boatload of money up front and if you don't have 100k in pocket change laying around you will wind up with budget representation with your life on the line.
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I think the NRA insurance reimburses, and the USCCA pays up front.
 
snax said:
I think the NRA insurance reimburses, and the USCCA pays up front.
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The NRA does not reimburse if you lose which I assume includes pleading out to double parking in front of the scene of the incident or violating a noise ordnance.

USCCA also does not require you repay them if you lose or cop a plea to a lesser charge (always a possibility, no matter how much you think you would never plead out if you were innocent). Also, USCCA covers other weapons and I believe has fewer exclusions. The NRA had to ban the USCCA from their show because they knew they could not beat the product on quality or features.
 
cockpitbob said:
Here's a thread discussing the NRA's carry insurance vs. USCCA's. The NRA quit carrying adds for "the competition" and the NRA's insurance doesn't sound as good.

This is a tough one for me. I hate insurance because in the long run, unless I get really unlucky, they make money from me. OTOH, I hear that in MA, even if it's a totally clean shoot, unless there's overwhelming evidence/witnesses right there when the cops show up, I'll likely be arrested and spend $100,000 defending myself. The flip side is, statistics say I'll go my whole life without having to draw my gun. So, I'm finding the idea of carry insurance a tough call.

Here's USCCA's carry insurance site. The coverage looks pretty complete.
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All true. The odds are you will never need insurance. So if you are going strictly by the odds, then why do you even carry a gun?
 
The odds are MICH higher you will need legal defenses for either showing a gun, or someone knowing you own a gun making an accusation. Think of the road rage case where person A displays a knife, Person B shows he has a gun, and Person A treated as a witness, not as an assailant. The case will kick around for a year or so, run up $10K - $20K in legal fees, result in no/inconsequential penalty, then the start of additional legal fees in a likely futile attempt to get the LTC back. It is these "annoyances" that don't make the news (beyond a very short article about the arrest), but are much, much more common that an actual discharge in a self defense case.

I don't know of any of these policies that include "license defense coverage" or "license recovery coverage". Some malpractice policies explicitly include "defense of professional license" in the covered items.
 
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Individualist said:
All true. The odds are you will never need insurance. So if you are going strictly by the odds, then why do you even carry a gun?
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Well, I guess I don't go strictly by the odds. Carrying a gun doesn't cost me $260/year(that I wouldn't already be spending[wink]). And if the odds go against me, without insurance all I lose is money.

But why I Good question, and I'm sure my answer will vary over time. Right now it's 2 categories of "duty". I have a wife and kids and this is something I can do to protect them and protect them from losing me. The other kind of duty I think I said best in a post in the Congressman Shot thread.
cockpitbob said:
I carry almost every day. Some days when I carry I think "This is pointless. Statistics say, and I pray, that I'll go my whole life without ever needing to draw.". But if just a few percent of "good guys" carried every day, everywhere, many of these events would end much quicker. And if it was generally understood that for every 20 or 50 people, at least one is armed, the bad guys might be less inclined to do these mass shootings. An armed society is a polite society.
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I have the NRA gold plan because my wife and I both carry, and the premium covers both of us. If it was just me, the USCCA plan seems to provide better coverage for roughly the same money, but to add my wife would cost an additional 50%.

Yeah, it's easy to call insurance a ripoff because you'll probably never need it, but that's the bet you're making. In our sue-happy society, if you ever have to use your weapon and don't have insurance, there's a good chance you'll end up financially devastated. Especially living in a blue state, where it's much more likely that the gummint isn't going to look kindly on you.
 
Pistolay said:
I have the NRA gold plan because my wife and I both carry, and the premium covers both of us. If it was just me, the USCCA plan seems to provide better coverage for roughly the same money, but to add my wife would cost an additional 50%.
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How do you feel about the "reimbursement after trial at your expense" and "only if not found guilty of anything" provisions of the NRA insurance?
 
Rob Boudrie said:
How do you feel about the "reimbursement after trial at your expense" and "only if not found guilty of anything" provisions of the NRA insurance?
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Under the NRA plan you do have immediate access to up to 20% of the legal defense policy amount, which with the top plan would be $30 thousand dollars, for retainer and/or bail, labeled as "supplementary expenses." The rest has to wait until after acquittal. By law insurance companies cannot pay off on a crime, and under the NRA plan you are buying an individual policy, through them, with an insurance company. USCCA does it differently, they maintain an umbrella insurance policy, and you are buying coverage under their policy, so apparently they don't have the same rules to follow. USCCA has an edge in that they cover bail costs separate from the legal defense coverage total, while with the NRA it is part of the legal defense total.
 
And if the odds go against me, without insurance all I lose is money.
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Unless the lack of insurance forces you to hire less defense capable defense counsel than you could with insurance.
By law insurance companies cannot pay off on a crime, and under the NRA plan you are buying an individual policy, through them, with an insurance company
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The NRA is hiding behind that. Public policy prevents insurance from covering the consequences of a crime - for example, it would be illegal to sell securities traders a policy that would indemnify them from any SEC fine. Legal expenses are not generally considered part of the criminal penalty and, as the USCCA has demonstrated, the sponsor of a plan can pay out even if the underlying insurer does not.
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
How do you feel about the "reimbursement after trial at your expense" and "only if not found guilty of anything" provisions of the NRA insurance?
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As VT Farmer said, we do have immediate access to $30K, and that's individually. As far as being not guilty, well, if I'm guilty, that's on me.
 
Pistolay said:
... well, if I'm guilty, that's on me.
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That's a big maybe. The DA and Prosecutor don't give a shot if you are innocent. They only care about their win/loss record. If you kill someone and claim self defense, you've admitted to killing a person. If there isn't enough evidence to prove self defense you've got a life changing problem. Or if your handling of the situation doesn't agree with MA's screwball laws, you've got a problem. If you started the altercation, or failed to disengage and escape when there was an opportunity, or there isn't evidence the danger was imminent, or you can't prove shooting was a "proportional" amount of force, or was what a "reasonable person" would do, etc, etc you will likely go to jail.
 
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Reptile said:
There is also this company:

Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org
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I like that they don't pretend to be insurance. They pay up to $25k immediately to ensure that you have legal representation immediately after the incident and can post bail. They MAY also grant further funding and help for your defense if you're criminally charged or sued in civil court. I also like their educational efforts for armed citizens and lawyers. But I haven't joined yet (don't carry much yet).
 
Pistolay said:
As VT Farmer said, we do have immediate access to $30K, and that's individually. As far as being not guilty, well, if I'm guilty, that's on me.
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Read the fine print, is it not guilty of the main charge or not guilty in the entirety? You may beat the murder/manslaughter charge, but they get you on a storage violation for a few rounds of ammo they find in your car, or something not locked fully at home when they search there. They may add on a disturbing the peace for making too much noise at night, or violating a separate noise ordinance.

You might be charged with 100 little crimes that they find or manufacture to put pressure on you, and while your lawyer protects you from the big ones, and keeps you out of jail, that minor nothing thing that only results in a $200 fine but that they got you on is still a conviction. That conviction might be enough for the NRA to say "You were guilty of a crime, no payout" And now whatever that case cost is on your shoulders, plus dealing with the other costs of a trial like that (Lost job because you were being charged with murder, lost house because you lost your job early on and had a multi year fight with no income and possibly sitting in jail, name smeared in the press, family and friends maybe distancing themselves, Etc.)
 
Read the fine print, is it not guilty of the main charge or not guilty in the entirety? You may beat the murder/manslaughter charge, but they get you on a storage violation for a few rounds of ammo they find in your car, or something not locked fully at home when they search there. They may add on a disturbing the peace for making too much noise at night, or violating a separate noise ordinance.
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The reality is that if you are actually not guilty, there is an excellent chance you WILL plead guilty to a lesser charge. Sure, it's easy to say "I'd never do that", but things change when your attorney says "Take the deal and this is over but you'll be a PP; if you go to trial and lose you will need soap on a rope, since the courts punish people who turn down deals severely. Remember, the prisons are full of people would be free if they did as they were told and gave the prosecutor an easy win. Oh, and if it goes to trial, I'll need another $50K before I start preparing your case."

Add in a couple of years worth of extensions and continuances, and you may just plead to get it over with.
 
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Both of these plans seem expensive considering that through most employers you can buy a prepaid legal plan for $300 / year that covers your whole family.

These typically cover writing / updating a will annually, and any defense you or your family might need (not only carrying, but if your kid gets in a fight and is charged w assault, OUI, etc...).
 
peterthefish said:
Both of these plans seem expensive considering that through most employers you can buy a prepaid legal plan for $300 / year that covers your whole family.

These typically cover writing / updating a will annually, and any defense you or your family might need (not only carrying, but if your kid gets in a fight and is charged w assault, OUI, etc...).
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Is this through a lawfirm that has a deal with the employer, or just a legal defense insurance that covers the lawyer you pick to defend you? It might be ok to have basically any lawfirm to help with wills and such minor stuff, but you want someone who defends criminal cases to be your defense attorney.
 
peterthefish said:
Both of these plans seem expensive considering that through most employers you can buy a prepaid legal plan for $300 / year that covers your whole family.

These typically cover writing / updating a will annually, and any defense you or your family might need (not only carrying, but if your kid gets in a fight and is charged w assault, OUI, etc...).
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Check again.

These plans cover routine stuff like wills and house closings, but generally do not cover felony criminal defenses. They do come with something like a 20% or 25% discount off the normal rate on criminal defense.

I know this is the case for AARG and Hyatt. I would be surprised if any of the $300 employer plans cover criminal defense at any level other than discount off normal fee.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Check again.

These plans cover routine stuff like wills and house closings, but generally do not cover felony criminal defenses. They do come with something like a 20% or 25% discount off the normal rate on criminal defense.

I know this is the case for AARG and Hyatt. I would be surprised if any of the $300 employer plans cover criminal defense at any level other than discount off normal fee.
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Ours do indeed cover criminal defense. Had a co-worker use it when she got a 2nd or 3rd DUI.
 
peterthefish said:
Ours do indeed cover criminal defense. Had a co-worker use it when she got a 2nd or 3rd DUI.
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What is the particular plan? It would be interesting to read exactly what is covered, and the dollar limit on a tria

As to attorney selection - I know you select your own attorney with AARG or Hyatt, but not all attorneys are in the plan network.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
What is the particular plan? It would be interesting to read exactly what is covered, and the dollar limit on a tria

As to attorney selection - I know you select your own attorney with AARG or Hyatt, but not all attorneys are in the plan network.
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I'll pull up the docs when I get home. You can select your own atty from the network, I believe they offer limited reimbursement or out of network attorneys.
 
peterthefish said:
I'll pull up the docs when I get home. You can select your own atty from the network, I believe they offer limited reimbursement or out of network attorneys.
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I'll bet there is a limit on criminal defense making it more like a discount rather than payment for any major felony trial.

Also, an unanswered question - do any of these self defense plans consider payments to private investigators or expert witnesses as covered expenses?
 

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