Not using your front sight in a confrontation.

M1911

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I had to turn it off half-way through after about the third time that he pointed his gun near his foot.
 
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The comments are fun:

I never said you shouldn't know how to use your sights. HOWEVER, in the real deal you won't see your sights. Obviously your training is limited to text book scenarios that are not realistic. If you rely on the gun to get the job done, you are screwed to begin with. Using your front sight the way most people teach is only good for less than 10% of real world situations. Using your front sight in 90% of situations can get you killed or seriously injured.
Which is it? Never, or ~10%?

There is no proof that using your front sight WILL increase your hit ratio
Ahh yes, the unproven legend of the front sight.
 

M1911

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Which is it? Never, or ~10%? .
Yea, I had that problem with the video as well. I've never used my gun in a confrontation (and hope I never do). Maybe I won't see my sights; maybe I will. But I have a hard time with the word "never". Ayoob interviewed people who said that they saw their sights in sharp focus, seeing the individual serrations on the front sight. So I can't abide the word "never."
 
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Just remember, if you DO use your front sight, just make sure you aren't looking at the big hole underneath it where the bullets come out before you squeeze that trigger! besides, that dummy couldn't slap the gun away OR stab him, he had no arms! It sounded like the guy's script ran out and he had to wing it the rest of the way.
 
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Holy shit.....did he say he teaches an "advanced pistol fighting" class???? Rob Pincus and Craig Douglas look out cause this dude just may take over the advanced firearms training world.....hahahahahahaha
 

JimConway

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When he says that you will never see your front sight in a fight, he is full of S**t
If he said the you may not see your front sight, he could be right
If he said the you may not remember whether you used the front sight, he could be right

For example at 3 yards and closer, my gun will not be extended and I will not be able to see the front sight
I know a number that have had to shoot, each of them saw his front sight. One commented that he remembered seeing the front sight rising out of the notch ever so slowly

It constantly amazes me how people try to justify point shooting. BTW, I cover point shooting in almost every class. It has a place and can work well in some situations, but not all situations
 

DRFTraining

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1. He talks about "tunnel vision". Tunnel vision is a myth. We do not lose our peripheral vision, what we gain is a rise in visual acuity in our center line of site, allowing the brain to focus on and process more immediate threats.

2. He clearly doesn't meed sights...his gun shoots lazy beams

3. All shooting is a balance of speed and precision, our target and distance to it will determine exactly how and when we use our sights.

4. Batteries die...and so will you if you're relying on that laser to work beyond the shadow of a doubt during a dynamic critical incident.

5. If the gun is in and parallel with your line of sight, you will most likely be looking OVER your front sight at the threat because you are at a distance of 0-12 feet and with the gun at extension "unsighted" fire will most likely occur.

6. He knows more than us...he trains REALISTICALLY
 

Bill Nance

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Point shooting is great, for what it is. But it's not the be all end all. And if the idiot making this video actually bothered to do some study on OIS, he would know that an extension, where one can see the front sight, is the norm, not the exception.
 

JimConway

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Most of you know that I stress point shooting in close situations, especially where retention of your firearm is a significant concern.
Some years ago I was involved in an informal comparison of point vs. aimed shooting.
What I learned was
Point shooting is not faster
Point shooting is way less accurate
Except at very close situations, I will not point shoot

Back in the early 1950's, the FBI taught point shooting. There was an informal shoot off between the FBI's top instructor and Bill Rogers. Rogers won on time and accuracy. About a year later the FBI adopted aimed shooting.

My summary: if you have some distance use your sights
 

Twigg

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Contact shooting as a concept is awesome. If you're getting attacked by a paraplegic from three feet away. Or you're working PSD and have the legal authority to engage before the threat's weapon is up.
Or you're in a conversation with two hoodrats about moving their little party away from your doorstep and they disagree.
 

Roland Deschain

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Edit: I'll save my un-PC humor for later.

I've only been in one gunpoint confrontation, and it was job related. Take it for what it's worth, it's just my experience. I grabbed a guy who had stolen a car and hurt a bunch of people. I came around the corner and ran straight into him running up the road. I jumped out and lined up on him while yelling all the normal stuff. Initially, I used my sights, as we were at about 12 yards. This is where things may or may not differ from a self-defense encounter...

I couldn't use my sights anymore due to the fact that I couldn't focus on his hands (which he kept behind his back), and I was trying to get a bigger picture of people in the area due to it being 4:00 in the afternoon. Had he not shown his hands, or come out with a gun or knife, would I have gone back to sights? I don't know.

I do teach my guys a mix of point shooting and sighted fire. The point shooting is pretty much relative to transitioning to a firearm during a hand to hand combat situation. Even when in sighted fire ranges, I try to get them to take in the whole situation periodically, and not get so wrapped up in the sights.

Just my experience, not HSLD or anything.
 
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Bill Nance

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Edit: I'll save my un-PC humor for later.

I've only been in one gunpoint confrontation, and it was job related. Take it for what it's worth, it's just my experience. I grabbed a guy who had stolen a car and hurt a bunch of people. I came around the corner and ran straight into him running up the road. I jumped out and lined up on him while yelling all the normal stuff. Initially, I used my sights, as we were at about 12 yards. This is where things may or may not differ from a self-defense encounter...

I couldn't use my sights anymore due to the fact that I couldn't focus on his hands (which he kept behind his back), and I was trying to get a bigger picture of people in the area due to it being 4:00 in the afternoon. Had he not shown his hands, or come out with a gun or knife, would I have gone back to sights? I don't know.

I do teach my guys a mix of point shooting and sighted fire. The point shooting is pretty much relative to transitioning to a firearm during a hand to hand combat situation. Even when in sighted fire ranges, I try to get them to take in the whole situation periodically, and not get so wrapped up in the sights.

Just my experience, not HSLD or anything.
Actually a really common story when the confrontation doesn't result in immediate gunfire.

Remembering my own experience actually ready to shoot someone, I know that I focused on the front sight (probably a bad tactical move) to the exclusion of all else. except a sight picture. The guy backed up and put his hands in the air as soon as he saw the gun and then got down on the ground. At that point, I honestly don't remember a lot except making sure I had put the gun down as soon as I saw the squad car.

I will be "tactical" and put this down to adrenaline, rather than half-heimer's.
 
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I watched the whole video and I think the point he was trying to make was that - at very close range, you won't be looking at your sights, for a number of reasons. I think he's right there. As distance increases though, I need to use my sights. I do think it is wise to develop a good "index" with your firearm though. Many close in shots only need to be "indexed" on but of course, this needs to be practiced a lot.

Some interesting numbers I found in an older Combat Tactics Magazine (from Surefire). Shooting stats from the NYPD

In 2005, there were 123 shootings
involving 166 officers
firing a total of 616 rounds
which works out to 17.3 shots per incident.

From 0 to 2 yards
officers involved: 64
Number of shots fired: 127
Number of hits: 65
Percentage of hits: 51

From 3 to 7 yards
Officers involved: 44
Number of shots fired: 155
Number of hits: 68
Percentage of hits: 44

8 to 15 Yards
Officers involved: 40
Number of shots fired: 205
Number of hits: 14
Percentage of hits: 7

16 to 25 Yards
Officers involved: 7
Number of shots fired: 93
Number of hits: 5
Percentage of hits: 5

I assume most of these encounters took place in low to no light conditions, with moving participants (likely) and most seem to have been at close range. I think these stats show the importance of developing a good "index" capability with your gun for those situations where there is poor lighting, actors are moving and the ranges are reasonably close. As distances increase, I believe you need to be good with sighted fire. Still though, It's hard to imagine trained professionals shooting at someone from 0 to 6 feet and missing 49% of the time.
 

Bill Nance

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Interested that you would cite the NYPD, the Dept with the worst record of all on officer involved shootings.

Tell us some more about the vaunted NYPD after the travesty that just occurred,,,,
 

JimConway

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SiGtac
You said that it is hard to imagine "trained professionals" missing at zero to six feet
This is a good observation which has driven police departments nuts for many years
First, my comments are not anti police in anyway
The training that officers get at the police academy is very short
Most police do little, if any, real training.
Very few officers get any training at zero to six feet
What police departments do is to qualify their officers to a specified test
Most police officers do not shoot on their own to be able to shoot better

I had a conversation with a police department instructor, I asked him if he had any real good shooters
His response was that his department did not have any "gun nuts"

A couple of years ago I was helping an officer get read for his qualification
While he was making generally good shots, I noticed that his point of aim was always high and to the right. He told me that a previous police instructor told him to do it to pass his qualifications
He had a specific aim point worked out for each of the distances in the qual
The real world problem with this was that if he did know the exact distance, he didn't know where to aim
 
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Interested that you would cite the NYPD, the Dept with the worst record of all on officer involved shootings.

Tell us some more about the vaunted NYPD after the travesty that just occurred,,,,
Perhaps you should direct your question toward Surefire and their magazine editor.

I was told that NY was one of the only states to compile such statistics on Officer involved shootings. I have no investment in the NYPD one way or the other. I just thought the stats interesting and somewhat pertinent to the topic at hand.
 
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SiGtac
You said that it is hard to imagine "trained professionals" missing at zero to six feet
This is a good observation which has driven police departments nuts for many years
First, my comments are not anti police in anyway
The training that officers get at the police academy is very short
Most police do little, if any, real training.
Very few officers get any training at zero to six feet
What police departments do is to qualify their officers to a specified test
Most police officers do not shoot on their own to be able to shoot better

I had a conversation with a police department instructor, I asked him if he had any real good shooters
His response was that his department did not have any "gun nuts"

A couple of years ago I was helping an officer get read for his qualification
While he was making generally good shots, I noticed that his point of aim was always high and to the right. He told me that a previous police instructor told him to do it to pass his qualifications
He had a specific aim point worked out for each of the distances in the qual
The real world problem with this was that if he did know the exact distance, he didn't know where to aim
Jim,
I concur with what you have stated here. I too am an instructor and have "worked" with several Officers to help improve their shooting skills. I agree that most LEO's are not "gun guys" and do little training on their own. The "trained professionals" comment may have been a bit tongue in cheek on my part. I do find the stats interesting though as they are real and not based on someones internet conjecture.
 
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I have patented a new training technique for close-in threats.

It's called "backing up."

Just because a fight starts up close doesn't mean it has to stay that way.
 

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Bill Nance

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You mean the SIX SECOND incident where 9 and 7 shots respectively were fired at a suspect who WASN'T SHOOTING and yet missed most of the shots altogether and injured 9 innocents? "Travesty" is being rather charitable IMO.
 

M1911

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The perp basically wasn't moving, it was daylight, and the distance was very short. Their hit rate should have been a lot higher than it was.
 
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