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Not that it needs a response, but is there even a right one?

StevieP

StevieP

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A facebook friend from high school started a thread with these words:

"Twenty five years ago today, not one but two slugs from the smoking barrel of a .357 changed our family forever."

He wrote a nice tribute to his sister who was shot by a career criminal in Florida. Life taken too soon. Lives it heart and mind's eye pictures. All very sad.

Is it wrong of me to want to reply "Do you really blame the inanimate .357 caliber gun or the bullets? Did it load itself, violently attack a beautiful twenty year-old girl, point itself at her and pull the trigger?"

I don't think this fellow is really anti-gun, although if anyone I know has a reason to be, he might.

How do we gently, delicately, change the dialog from blaming the object used, to the actual perpetrator?

I won't even consider leaving any such commentary on his memorial thread, but would like to find a way to change the collective consciousness to put the blame only on where it should be, and stop the subconscious blaming of the guns.
 
Put down the keyboard... There's no possible way for it to end well if you comment anything other than maybe "sorry for your loss".
 
Why do gun people love to argue that guns are inanimate objects? The people that are anti-gun won't suddenly be swayed by such an obvious observation.
 
a simple comment about "hoping" the perp was caught or is serving a long sentence and of course your condolences that a terrible person could take the life of someone so special
 
StevieP said:
How do we gently, delicately, change the dialog from blaming the object used, to the actual perpetrator?
Click to expand...

you can't without coming across as a dick, and its really not the appropriate time/place for that discussion either IMO.
 
Not the time or place for a gun-rights debate. I'd steer clear. If I was a close friend I would offer condolences, or a memory of his sister, if I knew her.
 
I have a very dear friend whose son got caught in a mob hit. Long story short, he was dealing drugs, wasn't paying the required vig/percentage/cut whatever, was warned repeatedly, they beat him up and threatened him "Pay up or else". He did, for a while, then apparently either fell behind or said "eff that" and stopped paying...One awful night a few years ago the "or else" turned into him being shot, several times, killed while getting into his car in a quiet residential neighborhood not far from where his parents live.. Brutal killing, was a "mess" according to another friend who is a high rank cop in town and was on scene . My friend, the Dad, now hears me talking about guns and he's appalled. He "hates them". He wants ALL of them confiscated, melted down, the 2nd Amendment repealed, only cops should own them etc etc...

I had a heart-to-heart with him. We are very close friends. He was literally tears in his eyes as I was telling him "It wasn't the gun that killed your boy" etc, that my legal weapon is for self defense, etc etc...No matter what I say, no matter what I said, no matter what I might think of saying, he NEEDS to blame the gun. I guess basically, if I'm to understand it (which my God I can't fathom, losing a child, not to mention in that manner), he NEEDS to blame the guns. It was the guns that took his boy's life. Not necessarily the evil pr*cks that pulled the trigger, but the guns. He needs to hate the gun.

And maybe this is true of many many Anti's. Maybe they're just good, caring, tender human beings who don't want to believe the evil that exists in people, don't want to accept that if the guns didn't exist they'd be just as easily stabbed, strangled etc. Hence the liberalism in this friggin state, the thought that you can somehow "rehabilitate" the evil murderers, somehow "fix" them so that they will be "better human beings" and we won't have to put them away and/or execute them like the violent animals they might be.

My friend's son could never have fought off 4 or 5 knife wielding thugs, but that doesn't matter to Dad. All he knows is that "Guns killed my kid", that he "sees the pain in his wife's eyes every time guns are mentioned, etc etc. No matter how hard (or gently, understanding, sympathetic etc) I try to get him to see the good in me, and he knows I'm a good guy and a family man seeking only protection from violent evil, no matter what - he HATES guns and wants them gone. Eradicated, banned, confiscated, removed from the planet, etc.

Then, and only then, will he and his wife rest peacefully. When the evil guns that took their boy away are no longer in existence. Regardless of anything else - anything else - be it the protection that the legal guns provide legal law abiding citizens or the liberty that the Founding Fathers provided me, provided us, he simply wants them GONE. Forever.

At this point, what more could I ever say to him to get him and the Mrs. to think otherwise? I wouldn't get into it with your high school friend, unless you want to end up frustrated (sympathetic, understanding, yet frustrated) like I am when talking to my dear friend.

The friend who loves me, and vice versa, love him like a brother, yet he hates - actually despises - my gun.
 
GlockJock said:
I have a very dear friend whose son got caught in a mob hit. Long story short, he was dealing drugs, wasn't paying the required vig/percentage/cut whatever, was warned repeatedly, they beat him up and threatened him "Pay up or else". He did, for a while, then apparently either fell behind or said "eff that" and stopped paying...One awful night a few years ago the "or else" turned into him being shot, several times, killed while getting into his car in a quiet residential neighborhood not far from where his parents live.. Brutal killing, was a "mess" according to another friend who is a high rank cop in town and was on scene . My friend, the Dad, now hears me talking about guns and he's appalled. He "hates them". He wants ALL of them confiscated, melted down, the 2nd Amendment repealed, only cops should own them etc etc...

I had a heart-to-heart with him. We are very close friends. He was literally tears in his eyes as I was telling him "It wasn't the gun that killed your boy" etc, that my legal weapon is for self defense, etc etc...No matter what I say, no matter what I said, no matter what I might think of saying, he NEEDS to blame the gun. I guess basically, if I'm to understand it (which my God I can't fathom, losing a child, not to mention in that manner), he NEEDS to blame the guns. It was the guns that took his boy's life. Not necessarily the evil pr*cks that pulled the trigger, but the guns. He needs to hate the gun.

And maybe this is true of many many Anti's. Maybe they're just good, caring, tender human beings who don't want to believe the evil that exists in people, don't want to accept that if the guns didn't exist they'd be just as easily stabbed, strangled etc. Hence the liberalism in this friggin state, the thought that you can somehow "rehabilitate" the evil murderers, somehow "fix" them so that they will be "better human beings" and we won't have to put them away and/or execute them like the violent animals they might be.

My friend's son could never have fought off 4 or 5 knife wielding thugs, but that doesn't matter to Dad. All he knows is that "Guns killed my kid", that he "sees the pain in his wife's eyes every time guns are mentioned, etc etc. No matter how hard (or gently, understanding, sympathetic etc) I try to get him to see the good in me, and he knows I'm a good guy and a family man seeking only protection from violent evil, no matter what - he HATES guns and wants them gone. Eradicated, banned, confiscated, removed from the planet, etc.

Then, and only then, will he and his wife rest peacefully. When the evil guns that took their boy away are no longer in existence. Regardless of anything else - anything else - be it the protection that the legal guns provide legal law abiding citizens or the liberty that the Founding Fathers provided me, provided us, he simply wants them GONE. Forever.

At this point, what more could I ever say to him to get him and the Mrs. to think otherwise? I wouldn't get into it with your high school friend, unless you want to end up frustrated (sympathetic, understanding, yet frustrated) like I am when talking to my dear friend.

The friend who loves me, and vice versa, love him like a brother, yet he hates - actually despises - my gun.
Click to expand...
Reading thru this, it seems like your friend's son was done in by his own choices more than anything else. Not a random act of (gun or otherwise) violence. Sad but not attributable to the gun for sure...
 
piman said:
Reading thru this, it seems like your friend's son was done in by his own choices more than anything else. Not a random act of (gun or otherwise) violence. Sad but not attributable to the gun for sure...
Click to expand...

Exactly. He was indeed. But the point of the story is that despite the facts, the horrible truths that were of his son's own making, it was the gun that killed his boy. In his eyes, anyways. Cuz apparently if the killers had used ANY other means to commit the murder, then his boy would've somehow had a chance. That's why I mentioned how impossible it would be to fight off a gang of knife-wielders too. He just can't see this, can't admit it, won't admit it it, etc.
It wasn't the evil human beings that killed the kid. It was the evil (and illegal) guns they used. Period. Nothing I can ever say will get the kid's father and mother to see otherwise. Their boy "would've had a chance, if only..."

etc
 
Our family has a policy that makes decisions such as this easy. We always take the high road. I know that sounds simplistic, or even stupid, but it works for us. It allows others to save face, and really never costs us anything. Most disagreements are in their deep essence, trivial. There are of course certain principles on which I will not compromise, but this doesn't sound like one of those situations. He has his opinion, you have yours. I empathize with your desire to alter (correct) his opinion, but it sounds like it won't happen and all you'll get is a further strained relationship. Take the high road.
 
Nothing you can do can't say anything on the post that will get a positive debate started like that. However the reason people blame guns is lack of education and desire to do research. It's human nature no offense but how many people actually sit down and really go through their taxes or how many people work on their cars. Everyone has different tastes and beliefs. So if you don't like cars you ask a mechanic and take his word. But if they bore you but you like the fast and the furious movies well there's your point if refernce. Action movies are insanely popular and scenes where 2 cops take down 20 guys with a Beretta and they all have automatic weapons in a 20 v 2 slug fest. Well people are just inclined to belive that all guns kill people in one shot and gangbangers can shoot like Liam Neisson in taken. Or that every fist fight is the Krav magog slugfest where guys take 30 shots to vital areas and keep going unslowed. Any one who's been in a fistfight knows it's over in a few punches usually then one party beats the other pretty hard. But no one cares to research things they don't find interesting. I find myself self aware enough to try and see the other side most times but I do it too. So that logic plus media hyping up an uneducated mass to get ratings so their checks clear and then social media being what it is where lots of people who have nothing better to do than to be experts on everything when they don't know much. All spirals into a dangerous combination. So think of something you could care less about like a stupid show your wife watches. That she tries to catch you up on all the plot lines and twists and characters. She is really into it and doing everything she can to make you see her side. If you don't care the next day at work your buddy comes up and says his wife made him watch it too and he kinda liked it. You turn and say that show sucks I hate it I never wanna watch it again. Nothing is going to make you look into it like it or want to see it again. It's human nature. Can't fight it just have to hope enough people come to the realization that their opinions don't fuc***g matter and that trying to control other people's lives is a stupid thing to do and hopefully they lighten up and leave us alone.
 
jkelly1229 said:
Can't fight it just have to hope enough people come to the realization that their opinions don't fuc***g matter and that trying to control other people's lives is a stupid thing to do and hopefully they lighten up and leave us alone.
Click to expand...

But it's guns. And "they" will never ever ever ever EVER "lighten up and leave us alone".

(good post. +1)
 
Speaking from experience, it's not the gun (obviously) it's the dirt bag operating it. This post sounds a lot like some relatives of mine that couldn't figure out why I still own guns. There is no way to win this, step away, relatives of mine think I am as bad or worse than the dirt bag because I still own guns.
 
Snora said:
Why do gun people love to argue that guns are inanimate objects? The people that are anti-gun won't suddenly be swayed by such an obvious observation.
Click to expand...

Because with most antis, it occasionally forces them to think about how retarded they are. This situation though, not likely to happen... the person experiencing the loss is so overblown with emotion that it's hard to get them to put down the bs.
 
GM-GUY said:
Speaking from experience, it's not the gun (obviously) it's the dirt bag operating it. This post sounds a lot like some relatives of mine that couldn't figure out why I still own guns. There is no way to win this, step away, relatives of mine think I am as bad or worse than the dirt bag because I still own guns.
Click to expand...

This is because It's easier to blame a gun than it is to accept that a relative (the dirtbag) could do something so heinous.
 
Offer condolences. If you want to make a point, make it in a way like "I hope the guy that pulled the trigger is rotting in jail" or something that doesn't belittle his grief to suit a pro-gun agenda so directly. I hope what I said makes sense. Good luck and be careful what you say.
 
I don't know what is more pathetic...

1) Someone blaming a gun rather than the person behind the trigger.

2) Or the fact that you can't figure out by yourself that saying what you were thinking while a person was grieving is wrong.
 
Greg said:
I don't know what is more pathetic...

1) Someone blaming a gun rather than the person behind the trigger.

2) Or the fact that you can't figure out by yourself that saying what you were thinking while a person was grieving is wrong.
Click to expand...

It was 25 years ago. Does the grieving person get a lifetime pass? I'm not trying to be insensitive but the OP is trying to figure out how to help this person see something for what it really is. Frankly it might be easier for the guy moving forward if he grasps the fact that a person killed his sister and not a gun.
 
Not only would I stay away from turning this into an argument, I don't think there's an argument to be had. I agree that the majority of anti-gun people think that if the object was banned, the problem goes away. They're wrong. But in this case, it's semantics. If I said, "these hand loads I picked up changed my life." Or, "this '57 Les Paul made me a better guitarist", no one would jump down my throat. Because arguing semantics is a petty argument. Gun rights people are always under attack and because of that we're becoming hyper sensitive to the way language is used. Your friend doesn't sound like he's trying to push an agenda and neither should you. Be a friend and offer condolences.
 
You are not obliged to turn every comment about guns and people who have been hurt or killed by guns into an argument about gun control.

Sometimes, it's okay to simply show compassion for people you care about whose lives have been touched by senseless violence.
 
Realtor MA said:
It was 25 years ago. Does the grieving person get a lifetime pass
Click to expand...

Yes. Yes they do.

I am not an expert, but I have (sadly) read quite a bit about surviving the deaths of siblings and children, and as much as it hurts to lose anyone we care about, when we lose a young person to suicide or violence(two very different dynamics, btw), it is very difficult to grieve normally because the circle of life is broken, and it was done with intent. Survivors have a lot of confusion, heartbreak, and anger, and no place to put it.

Even so, exactly what do you hope to accomplish if you go after this guy? His sister was shot to death by a criminal with a gun. Anything you say is either insensitive or irrelevant.
 
piman said:
Reading thru this, it seems like your friend's son was done in by his own choices more than anything else. Not a random act of (gun or otherwise) violence. Sad but not attributable to the gun for sure...
Click to expand...

Exactly. Sadly, the dad only should be blaming one thing and that thing is his sons stupidity and his choice of lifestyle. He wanted to play and not pay so he ended up paying with his life. They could have just as easily put a bomb in his car or stabbed him in a crowd or beat him to death with bats. It matters not though because its all on his stupid ass son. Unfortunately, he will never see it that way.
 

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