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Not a week goes by that NH F&G isn't rescuing some dumbass out of the mountains...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by timbo, May 10, 2019.

  1. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    This week it was at least twice. Totally unprepared hikers...total idiots. WTF is wrong with these people? Supposedly NH charges these idiots for these rescues. I have to wonder how many actually get a bill?

    I've written to NH F&G asking them this and all I get is a canned response that basically tells me nothing.

    NH residents can't keep subsidizing these fools with our hunting/fishing/OHRV/boat/etc fees.

    There is a "HikeSafe" card that if you bought one (or if you bought a NH fishing and/or hunting license), your rescue is free (to the hiker). I have to wonder how many of these "hikers" actually have them and if they don't, why aren't we going after them for $$$.

    Hiker in Need of Assistance on Falling Waters Trail

    Lost Hiker, North Baldface Mountain, Chatham
     

  2. one-eyed Jack

    one-eyed Jack Manufacturer Dealer NES Member

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    Idiots. Maybe they should be required to pony up a $5000 cash deposit, non refundable if they need to be rescued. Jack.
     
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  3. Choctaw

    Choctaw NES Life Member NES Member

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    a couple of examples of bills that were sent:

    CONCORD, N.H. —

    The New Hampshire Supreme Court says a Michigan man must pay for the cost of his rescue from the White Mountain National Forest.

    Edward Bacon of Northville, Michigan, was on a five-day solo hike in September 2012 when he dislocated his hip and had to be carried for almost four miles over rough terrain in heavy rain.

    The state Fish and Game department charged him $9,300 after a judge found him negligent, but Bacon appealed that ruling to the high court, which rejected his argument Thursday.

    Bacon argued he was prepared for the conditions, physically capable and had adequately planned his hike. But the state said his training was insufficient and that he was negligent in trying to jump over a ledge after having dislocated his hip five other times.

    Dream House of the Week: Johnson & Johnson mansion

    Stranded with a sprained ankle on a snow-covered mountain, Eagle Scout Scott Mason put his survival skills to work by sleeping in the crevice of a boulder and jump-starting evergreen fires with hand sanitizer gel.

    He put plastic bags inside his boots to keep his feet dry as he sloshed through mountain runoff hidden beneath waist-deep snow. After three cold days last April, rescue crews spotted him hiking toward the summit of Mount Washington, the Northeast's highest mountain.

    New Hampshire officials praised his resourcefulness. So grateful was he for his rescuers that Mason, 17, sent $1,000 to the state.

    Sometime later, New Hampshire sent him a bill: $25,734.65 for the cost of rescuing him.

    N.H. Bills Lost Hikers for Cost of Rescue
     
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  4. fitzknny

    fitzknny NES Member

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    It's not just hiking in the Mountains . . . . it's everywhere . . . land sea and air . . . . too many people without a clue or good sense . . . . let fate take its toll . . . . .r
     
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  5. whatluck

    whatluck

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    A couple of friends almost died in a 4th of July weekend blizzard on Mt Wash, they had summer daypacks and hiking shoes, snuggled under an emergency blanket in a dry ravine and hiked out in the morning.

    Another time in way upstate VT 2 kids walked into my campsite right after sunset in the rain soaked and freezing, asked me to go to their camp and start a fire for them. I didn't think it was a good idea to let some strangers lead me into the woods, so I let them stay with me. They were 19, freshmen from NHU, were wearing COTTON, had no idea how to start a fire, and I think were too drunk to drive out of there. It was about 50 degrees and it rained most of the night, not too hard but just enough to make it suck. I had a little lean-to big enough for me and the dog that I let them use and expanded while they sat there. I gave them the rest of my food, my green tea, a blanket, showed them how to dry their clothes, and they slept there like babies while I stayed up and fed the fire. In the morning they were really grateful, refused my coffee (thank god), and went on their way. Later that morning I walked down to their campsite and cleaned up after them. They tried to set a bunch of wet leaves and branches on fire with lighter fluid.
     
  6. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    Some states (and countries like Switzerland) bill their insurance companies but, what if they don't have insurance? I understand sometimes there are actual emergencies and things happen, no matter how prepared you are but, by and large, most rescues in the Whites are because of abject stupidity. I can't tell you how many idiots I've seen above timberline literally in flip flops...FLIP FLOPS!
     
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  7. H-minus

    H-minus NES Member

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    I hiked the summit of Chocorua a few times last year. The last time I went there, severe thunderstorms were forecasted for 11am. For those not familiar with Chocorua, the bald summit is not a place you want to be in bad weather. I planned accordingly and got there at dawn hoping to get in a vigorous climb in and be back down by 9 or 10 the latest. As always it was a great hike and I had the mountain to myself having got there so early. That was until I got about halfway back down.

    I probably passed about 30 hikers in various groups on their way up. Many who were dressed in board shorts, tank tops and some that were even wearing flip flops. A few were hiking with their toddlers in kiddie carriers. I warned every single group I passed that bad storms were coming and that they should consider turning back. They all looked at me like I was either crazy or some kind of a**h*** and continued on their way. One dude even looked like I just insulted his manhood and muttered something under his breath. By the time I was pulling out of the Piper trail parking lot it had started raining and I could hear thunder in the distance.

    A lot of folks don't realize that people die in the white mountains every year. I guess they think its like a trip to a theme park or a Saturday at the movies.

    Funny how many license plates in the parking lot had red and blue lettering on them. ;)
     
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  8. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    Fifteen years ago I was hiking the Pemi Loop in the middle of July...in one day, I experienced lightning/thunder/rain/sleet/snow/dense fog/high winds while I was in the vicinity of Mt Bond...the whole gamut of weather. I put up a shelter as best I could and rode it out. I was prepared as I was on a multi day hike and had everything I needed to survive but, even after growing up in the White Mts, I was still surprised at how fast the weather changed. People are surprised at how much I carry with me if I am going above timberline. They haven't experienced the ferocity of the weather up there.

    The late Nick Howe, a friend of mine, wrote a book called "Not Without Peril" which details misadventures in the White Mts. It should be required reading for every person that wants to hike in the Whites.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  9. Spanz

    Spanz NES Member

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    Lighter fluid??!!!

    The proper way is a gallon jug of half gasoline/half engine oil. That will get ANY fire roaring!
     
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  10. Asaltweapon

    Asaltweapon NES Member

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    Styrofoam cups and gasoline make a nice jell.
     
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  11. whatluck

    whatluck

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    What do you light that with, a burning arrow?

    I always liked Vaseline and wood dust, you can thicken with acetone and you get a nice wood glue type stuff that burns in the rain. In the wet I just baton for the rest, keep cutting until you get dry wood

    Easier said then done with hypothermia setting in. That's why we don't screw around. Creeps up on you quick.
     
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  12. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    I love the smell of Napalm
     
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  13. Asaltweapon

    Asaltweapon NES Member

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    I guess it took a veteran. LOL
     
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  14. alpineboard

    alpineboard

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    Have had knowledge of some of these lost hiker events. Single path trail, (no turns, no forks), Hike in, turn around, hike out, easy , right? Wrong! Group of adults, normal looking, educated, good jobs, etc. Ok, they hike in, get to end of trail, and they claim that they are lost. They did not have the smarts to turn around and walk back out, the same way they came in.
    Many others, of folks not knowing that going IN and take a Right turn , that on the return going OUT, that the correct turn will be on the Left. Help , cell phone, if their is signal, we are lost.
     
  15. Racenet

    Racenet NES Member

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    From my understanding, they tried it once, got their dicks slapped big time (in court I believe) and never tried it again. They then made up the hikesafe program (or what ever it's called).

    On edit: I see Choctaw has an in depth posting about it all.
     
  16. Spanz

    Spanz NES Member

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    You are assuming they have some sort of directional awareness.

    Like when i hike, i pretty much know where north is, know the general compass direction (by looking at distant landmarks, sun, etc), and by studying the map kind of know when i go wrong and can immediately backtrack and get back on trail.

    When i was young, i used to enjoy driving from upstate NY to the CT coast without a map. Just taking backroads most of the way, and relying on my intuition.

    I think the people we are talking about that get lost, would consider that sort of directional awareness "witchcraft". They do not know where north is. they do not have a clue what direction the trail is supposed to go. If they suddenly ended up on the left side of a mountain ridge, when the map says they should be on the right side of the mountain ridge...they would not even notice. Yes, these sorts of "hikers" rely on their GPS, and if it ever quits...they hope their cell phone has a couple bars to call for help.
     
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  17. Spanz

    Spanz NES Member

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    throw a match, and RUN!

    Have you ever seen that ever-expanding ring of blue fire that radiates out from the wood pile hugging the ground in cold weather? It can go pretty far! ;)
     
  18. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    I heard this too but it was third party information so I didn't want to say anything. I had heard that the court costs to go after these idiots far outweighed the cost of going after what monies they could get.

    So, not only are we subsidizing the rescues by buying fish/hunting /OHRV/Boat/ licenses but people are getting suckered into buying Hike Safe cards to help cover the cost of rescues to which we may never see any recompense. As my dad would say, It's a hell of a way to run a business...

    I'm just tired of the NH F&G crying poverty.
     
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  19. Dench

    Dench

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    It's a bizarre situation for people to take a stand on considering all the absolutely mindless bullshit the government wastes money on.

    But as with nearly every topic discussed on NES the hive mind turns on it's robot brain and beep-bops to predictable conclusions. If people are stupid = they pay. Well as a full blown retard myself this worries me. In a state where you don't have to wear a helmet while driving a motorcycle, where even minor accidents will result in extreme injury and don't worry about insurance either - people are saying insurance for hiking might be an idea. In a state with no helmet laws and no car insurance laws. Why am I being left out of all this drug use going on here?

    Besides, lets not forget the real truth. Gentlemen, it's time for real talk. Just because you're to much of a bitch and or .gov lacky to go out and do what hard dicks do, doesnt mean that there arent rescue organizations in the White Mountains who will do it all for free. While we fantasize about sending teenagers $20,000 bills with our justice boners ripping holes in our pants, there are people who arent chumps who will climb up that bitch like a boss for zero dollars and drop your frozen corpse off at the bottom.

    This thread reminds me of the threads with the snow travel bans. I remember the last one with a few people comically pointing out to me that the ban was for 1st responders so they wouldnt be put in harms way. Shit, thanks. I was driving an engine in both blizzards and I would of had zero problem going out to do whatever was needed. Shit, I was out driving in circles regardless. We weren't billing either.

    As Dench hit's his sunset years after decades of incredible experiences in my parents basement one thing is for sure: You have to pick your battles. If billing people who are getting lost in the woods is one of them, make sure you arent bitching about "people these days" being lazy and never going outside. Because I will bet my mothers house I am typing this post on the person who supports these bills is also bitching about how lazy people are today.
     
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  20. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    I get what you're saying and mostly agree with it. I guess what I'm trying to get at is yes, there are rescue organizations in the Whites that do a great job and for free or very little money. My youngest brother was part of one for about ten years back in the 90's. This was before cell phones. Usually they got the call when someone didn't show up when they were supposed to or when one of their friends hiked out and found a phone. Many times there was no itinerary so they kept their eyes on parking lots for cars that hadn't moved for several days. Of course many times, it was too late by then.

    I don't get why NH F&G who continuously cries poverty, puts their noses in this when they don't need to. Let the idiots who go into the Whites ill prepared to face the elements, have fun...with their lives if it comes down to that. I really don't think it should be on the backs of those that hike in the mountains who are well prepared or worse, those that don't hike at all, to have to foot the bill for the costs involved.

    I have seen way too many people who were totally clueless foot loose and fancy free in the Whites who were extremely ill prepared. One that I met back about 10 years ago in a tee shirt (cotton), jeans and sneakers and carrying only a water bottle, I'm pretty sure it was one that died on one of the trails that day on the Gorham side of Mt Washington. He got lost, it was cold and raining and he died of hypothermia. What I heard later on from one of the rescue guys matched the description. It's sad but if you want to be adventurous, be prepared to pay the price.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  21. Live-a-Little

    Live-a-Little NES Member

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    That’s not completely fair. Not all ma**h***s don’t come prepared and have zero outdoor survival/navigational skills. Just a large majority. I mean we are a blue state after all.
     
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  22. MisterHappy

    MisterHappy NES Member

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    On the 16 yard line, shootin' for the Lewis!
    A few years ago, there was a full-on rescue of a coyote that fell through the ice in the Charles river

    Coyote Rescued From Icy Charles River in Boston

    This was about 2-3 weeks after a coyote was shot on the other side of the river

    Police Shoot, Kill Coyote On Beacon Hill

    If rescue squads will risk their life in freezing water for a 'yote, for free, that would be killed on the other bank, then even the most dumbass hikers should get a free pass.

    Though they are still dumb.
     
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  23. millbilly

    millbilly NES Member

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    What's funny is what different people call prepared. Some guys go on day hikes with gear for 3 day "in case". I will jog a mountain with trail runners and a hydration vest with my shirt and phone shoved in the pocket. These same people might make a comment about me being unprepared. I get the concern but it can be kind of annoying. Different people have different ability levels, and assess risk differently.
     
  24. Dench

    Dench

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    NHFG should be separating the issues. People being negligent and them having budget issues probably arent intimately tied together. Are overtimes from rescues straining their budget? I have no clue. But if they are that's sad and it's not the citizens who are utilizing the system's problem. If the state cant fund the organization to whatever its charter is than thats an major problem.

    I actually just recently got done reading a book with all the fatalities in the white mountains from 2017 back. When you look at the number of people who hit those trails yearly one thing is obvious: not many people are dying. Looks like under 15 people dead since 2010. Apparently NH is claiming it spends $260,000 annually on rescues. This is a tiny amount of money considering how much the region gains from people coming in to use the terrain. It's not like that killer bowling alley in Berlin is bringing people in to Coos County. I mean it brings me in but I have nothing better to do with my time.

    Like I said, people need to pick their battles. The people who need to be focused on are the government orgs bitching about money and the scrutiny should be redirected towards whatever useless person is creating the funding bottleneck. .25 million per year is a JOKE.


    The most common non winter problem people run into is rain or wet conditions when they arent dressed for it and arent packed for it. My bag has a full set of waterproof stuff, not that I need it I don't even wear a shirt when I hike it. That's what chest hairs for.

    A lot of people do get injured though and these people do need to be "rescued," as in dragged down the side because they can't walk on their own anymore. Shit happens and people roll ankles and fall off things. Shit talk them at their own risk because that stuff happens to everyone. Everyone but me.
     
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  25. C. Stockwell

    C. Stockwell

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    I once had a derp moment on a mountain that required getting pulled out of Dodge. To be fair, I was in Maine, which is a wild frontier full of cannibalistic barbarians ;)[laugh]

    I completed Sugarloaf, Spaulding, and Abraham in Maine in one go with no problem from Sugarloaf --> Spaulding --> Abraham. Sat down for a break at Abraham's summit. No sign of blue trail blazes to get off the summit to the trailhead, which is a small pull-off on an unmarked hard-pack dirt road. I looked to my right (which was to my southeast, where I had to go) and saw cairns. Cairns are a sign out above the tree line, right? Right. I followed the cairns to what I later learned to be Lone Mountain nearby. At that summit, there was no clue as to how to get out. There was no way to leave according to my compass (SE, the way I had to go), so I looked around for a bit and saw blue painter's tape at a cut-out of the woods at the treeline. Followed the blue painter's tape to another hard packed road. After being rescued, I learned that the painter's tape was for snowmobile trails. Went southeast down the road... Nothing. Went north up the road... Nothing...

    Luckily I had cell phone signal and called for help after getting bored of marching up and down the road. Lit a fire and took a break. Eventually got found by a Maine fish and game officer. In contrast to the rather well-maintained NH trails, one guy was responsible for trail maintenance of that section of trails and the area hadn't recovered from a storm the year or two before, which made sense because I saw blown-down trees for long segments of the trails. At points, I was following moose paths around all the blown down trees to get back onto the Appalachian Trail. Probably more than 20 times.

    No charge to me for being rescued. The officer mentioned that a guy the week before had a similar issue getting off the summit of Abraham. Had proper clothes, food, water, and a compass. The map I had was insufficient and I now have a better map of all of Maine's mountains. NH, in comparison, is a bloody cake-walk in comparison to being in the Maine woods. In NH, you'll find something or someone in quick time. In Maine, you can literally be alone in the woods with no one and nothing around.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  26. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    You're going to find in NH that they are really no longer maintaining "wilderness" trails...that means signs too. To those that do this stuff, wilderness means wilderness. No man made anything. You'd better learn to read a map and compass and have them with you. That being said, even the wilderness in NH isn't really wilderness...if you walk in a straight line 15-20 miles max, you'll hit a road. Like you said, northern Maine does have some pretty wild areas that you could walk for weeks and never see a paved road or dwelling.

    They are even removing bridges in some areas so you will need to wade across stream/rivers. Woe be to the person that treks into the wilderness with water levels relatively low and then after a day or two of downpours, you are stuck if the only trail back out is through that water.

    After a few years, some wilderness trails will disappear forever. It doesn't take long for the forest to take over. Just look at Zealand Valley...100 years ago, it was clear cut and burned...not a tree to be found. Same with the East Branch basin of the Pemi. In the early part of the last century most of the trails in there were once RR beds, logging roads and skidder roads, pretty much clear cut for all the Spruce that was in there. You'd never know it now unless you know what you are looking for. Back in the 60's when I started hiking the whites, there was a lot more evidence of the logging that went on in there...almost nothing can be seen now.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  27. C. Stockwell

    C. Stockwell

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    Yeah that's crossed my mind in regards to the Black Angel Trail and Mount Hight. I'd like to get to Hight via the Wild River Wilderness and there's a serious issue of whether or not I'd be able to: 1) ford the river; and 2) follow the trail in and out.

    Still though, NH isn't as bad as Maine. If I were to get legitimately lost in the Wild River Wilderness, I'd be able to go west towards the river and then NW towards the trailheads, campgrounds, and parking lots, or E towards the Carters. With Maine, there isn't nearly the amount of hikers or discernible landmarks out there.
     
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  28. timbo

    timbo Navy Veteran NES Member

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    If you're going into the NH wilderness, go in August or September. The brooks/rivers are usually at their lowest and torrential rains are "relatively" unlikely (and black fly/mosquito season is all but over). I carry a small ham radio handheld radio that will pick up the weather service bulletins (around 162.xxx MHz) and if I am spending more than a day, I'll keep an ear to the weather. I don't bring it to call someone (repeaters are far and few between up there) but usually you can pick up one of the NWS transmitters off Mt Washington, Gray, Maine or other places.
     
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  29. H-minus

    H-minus NES Member

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    Lol. I'm just being a dink. There were a handful of NY license plates at the trail head as well. All you damn city slickers with your flip flops, Hillary bumper stickers and spray tans. ;)
     
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  30. Andy in NH

    Andy in NH NES Life Member NES Member

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    Another one:
    Hiker taken off Mount Monadnock by helicopter after medical issue.
    DHART is not cheap.
    Fire Dept. and ambulance got dispatched (more $), but were never used.
     

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