Non-Resident "traveling" with Shotgun

[El Bishop]

A friend, who grew up in Mass and now lives in CA, is coming to visit in a week or so. He has a shotgun at his parents' house that he'd like to bring back to CA. Our plan is to pick it up on our way down to the Cape for a few days and then for us to drive straight back to the airport and for him to check it in for the trip back to CA. He does not have a MA license. I have an LTC-A. My thinking is that I can be in "possession" of the gun from the time we pick it up until I drop him to the airport, at which point he just has to bring it to the counter and check it in. CA then doesn't require any license. This sounds like it woul be OK but there is the time when he is solely in poessession of the gun -- from my car to the check-in counter. BUT I think that ch. 140 Section 129C(h) covers him: it provides an exemption for people "traveling in or through the commonwealth."
http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129c

Not sure if this would cover him the entire time that he'll be here (3 days) but between my license and this regulation, it would seem that he's covered.

Any thoughts? Thanks

 

[Jose]

I guess I've read here that no one gets asked for LTC or FID when checking guns with luggage at Logan.

That said, it would be a shitty day if he's the first one they ask.

If it were any almost any other state, I'd say no problem. But considering where you all live, you (with the LTC) should take him and the shotgun to the post office and mail it to a dealer in CA where he can take possession of it without a hassle.

 

[GOAL C.M.]

we have an entire page on our site dedicated to travel with firearms.

http://goal.org/masslawpages/travelinfo.html

 

[El Bishop]

Thanks -- I did look at the GOAL page before posting. It doesn't, nor can I find any resourse that explains what it means to "travel" with a firearm. If you are on vacation in MA for a few days, are you "traveling" the entire time you're here? Has anyone ever called the state police or some other authority for explanation/clarification?

 

[GOAL C.M.]

FOPA protects you for "Travel" which is very loosely defined as "passing through" in other words, driving through the state on the highway, with stops to eat, get fuel, etc..

Under MA law you are permitted to travel into and within the state if it's for a hunting trip (granted you have a MA hunting license), shooting activity such as a competition, or for a collectors association meeting. (we recommend that all firearms are secured in a locked container, unloaded, with no ammunition, and not accessible from the drivers seat. (don't lock in glove box or console) Bear in mind that you must be licensed in your home state for this to apply.

Basically you can not travel with the shotgun in MA unless it meets one of the above conditions.

Getting the shotgun home. Unless you were recently willed the gun, you would be breaking federal law by taking it across state lines, it would need to be shipped to an FFL in your home state, and picked up there.

 

[El Bishop]

Re the last point, I believe the relevant federal law protects interstate transportation of firearms as long as, in this case, TSA requirements are met (locked case, unloaded, etc.) and that the person is lawfully allowed to posses the firearm in the place traveling from and to. In this case, MA has as exemption for people traveling through MA (so covered there) and in CA, there's no restriction on possessing a shotgun (as long as not a felon etc.). So what federal law is being broken transporting the gun? Why does a FFL need to be involved.

I suppose a related issue is how he came to possess the gun in MA at all. It was his gun that he used to use as a kid with his dad, who had a LTC. For him to now have the gun, his dad presumably has to transfer the gun to him and that has to be registered in MA before he can take it out of MA? levels of complexity.

 

[RKG]

Under these circumstances, reliance on FOPA is potentially dubious, since it requires that the person be "legal" at both the start point and end point of his journey. The scenario I envision is that for some reason the plane lands in Podunk and all of the checked luggage has to be removed. In order for your friend to convince the Podunkians that he is legal in Podunk per FOPA, he'd have to convince them that he was legal in Massachusetts, the start point of his nominal FOPA journey. Avoid tough questions; have him ship the shotgun home.

 

[GOAL C.M.]

It would be a violation because the gun is not registered to him at this time in his home state. The laws he would be breaking go all the way back to the 1938 Federal Firearms Act.

 

[El Bishop]

His home state is CA, which does not require the gun to be registered.

 

[GOAL C.M.]

It doesn't matter what CA's laws are, he'd be breaking a federal law. The only way the shotgun can go home is to be shipped to an FFL in CA.

(unless it was willed to him)

 

[El Bishop]

Thanks again for the info and insight. GOAL C.M., while I may be foolish in believing and even moreso in saying it given your obvious expertise and experience in the area, I don't think he woudl be violating federal law. If he has a right to possess in MA while traveling and has a right to possess in CA, then he's in compliance with FOPA. The scenario from RKG Re landing in Podunk unexpectedly is a wrinkle. However, all of this said, I think it probably is better for him to take the gun to a FFL and just avoid the hassle.

Dare I call the FRB?

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopster...inalcontent&f=chsb_frb_poss_nonres&csid=Eeops

 

[GOAL C.M.]

Call the ATF, it's a federal issue. The problem with the law comes when he crosses state lines.

 

[twogunwilly]

That would have been a good question for testuser1, my only friend

 

[Len-2A Training]

The guy is NOT "traveling thru MA" . . . staying in MA (even a few different places) over a few days makes it his "start point" wrt the gun, therefore FOPA does NOT cover him at all even in the rest of his journey.

If HE OWNED the gun in MA prior to moving away (and left the gun in MA) there is NO need to transfer it (he still owns it), no need for FFLs at all. [This assumes CA allows this, Fed law certainly does.]

His legal options that I see are:

- Go with LTC friend to UPS or FedEx depot and ship to himself via Ground to CA. Allowed by Fed law.

- Fly out of RI/NH and have LTC friend travel with gun to state border. At Checkpoint Charlie, transfer possession of the gun to CA friend and bid adieu.

 

[El Bishop]

What if I (LTC) have possession of the gun for virtually the entire time he's in the state and then he takes possession at the airport, at which time he is traveling back to CA?

Can he ship it to himself if he never had a MA FID or LTC?

 

[GOAL C.M.]

Len, your advice is not correct, he can not cross state lines with a firearm, it HAS to go from FFL to FFL if it does not belong to him.

 

[Jose]

Len, your advice is not correct, he can not cross state lines with a firearm, it HAS to go from FFL to FFL if it does not belong to him.

Did you see this in Len's post?

If HE OWNED the gun in MA prior to moving away (and left the gun in MA) there is NO need to transfer it (he still owns it), no need for FFLs at all.

If you go back and read the OP again you will find this:

He has a shotgun at his parents' house that he'd like to bring back to CA

IF, as that seems to imply, the person in question is the OWNER of the shotgun, and has been the owner ALL THIS TIME, then there is NO TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP and no FFLs need to be involved in this AT ALL.

El Bishop, for the sake of clarity and ending side arguments not based on reality, PLEASE CONFIRM that he has owned the shotgun the entire time. The answer you and him will get will be VERY different depending on who the current owner of the firearm is.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Thanks Jose

And for Mike's benefit . . .

IFF is not a spelling error . . . in computer programming language that means "IF AND ONLY IF"

 

[GOAL C.M.]

The answer you and him will get will be VERY different depending on who the current owner of the firearm is.

Therein lies the million dollar question. It was never stated that the CA resident is the actual owner of the shotgun, my answers are all predicated on his not being the owner.

 

[El Bishop]

I will find out but it is not clear to me either. The situation is, I think, that he used the gun as a kid but that it was actually owned by his father. If my friend never had an FID or LTC and always just went shooting with his father, then can he can ever have legally "owned" the gun? If he was given the gun by his father but did not have a license, can he legally own it?

ADDITION: his father is still alive so it was not a will situation

 

[Len-2A Training]

Therein lies the million dollar question. It was never stated that the CA resident is the actual owner of the shotgun, my answers are all predicated on his not being the owner.

And mine were predicated on IFF he was the owner.

 

[El Bishop]

what does it mean to be the "owner"? Can you be the owner but not an FID or LTC holder?

 

[M1911]

Thanks -- I did look at the GOAL page before posting. It doesn't, nor can I find any resourse that explains what it means to "travel" with a firearm. If you are on vacation in MA for a few days, are you "traveling" the entire time you're here? Has anyone ever called the state police or some other authority for explanation/clarification?

Never call up a police agency asking for information about firearms laws. The answer you get will almost always be wrong.

 

[M1911]

If he has a right to possess in MA while traveling and has a right to possess in CA, then he's in compliance with FOPA.

He doesn't have a MA LTC. So he doesn't have a right to possess the gun in MA, so he isn't in compliance with FOPA.

 

[M1911]

What if I (LTC) have possession of the gun for virtually the entire time he's in the state and then he takes possession at the airport, at which time he is traveling back to CA?

He does not have an LTC. He can't legally be in possession of it in MA. The airport is still MA.

Can he ship it to himself if he never had a MA FID or LTC?

Yes.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I will find out but it is not clear to me either. The situation is, I think, that he used the gun as a kid but that it was actually owned by his father. If my friend never had an FID or LTC and always just went shooting with his father, then can he can ever have legally "owned" the gun? If he was given the gun by his father but did not have a license, can he legally own it?

"Using" and "Owning" are two distinctly different things and will matter wrt can he take/ship it to himself legally or MUST he do a transfer via FFLs. As you see, it's easy to get "bad info" based on only 1/2 the info needed to make a legal decision.

To answer the FID/LTC question . . . here's a for instance:

- Let's say that in any case where he lived in Free America growing up, his Father gave him that gun at age 18 or so (in a state where no permits, no registrations were required). It is HIS GUN. Let's further say that he went off to college in another state, leaving his possessions behind. And in a moment of temporary insanity, his parents moved from Free America to Communists, moved ALL the family possessions to MA.

- Some years later the Son comes to MA and wants to take his possessions back to CA with him (the shotgun). Well, he still owns it . . . he just can't possess it in MA since he doesn't have a FID/LTC . . . but that does not change his ownership. In that case he could ship to himself w/o FFLs (but have LTC holder possess gun to shipping depot) or travel with it . . . just NOT FROM MA (e.g. go to Manchester or RI airport to fly home).

If he didn't legally own the gun . . . he MUST use an FFL . . . his Father (assuming he was the owner) can legally ship it from UPS/FedEx depot to the Son's CA FFL and the Son can do the transfer paperwork back in CA. That would be his only legal option (FFL) if he was NOT THE OWNER. [NOTE: If Father "gave" him the gun as a kid/adult in MA, yet didn't do FA-10 and/or Son never had a MA FID/LTC, then the Son can NOT LEGALLY BE THE OWNER as MA requires all legal transfers to be documented and to licensed entities.]

 

[El Bishop]

If he is in possession of the gun while "traveling," then under exemption h to ch 140 section 129(C), he is allowed to possess the gun, no?

 

[M1911]

I will find out but it is not clear to me either. The situation is, I think, that he used the gun as a kid but that it was actually owned by his father. If my friend never had an FID or LTC and always just went shooting with his father, then can he can ever have legally "owned" the gun? If he was given the gun by his father but did not have a license, can he legally own it?

ADDITION: his father is still alive so it was not a will situation

Then it is his father's gun, not his, and that is an entirely different situation. He can't just take the gun with him to CA, FOPA or no FOPA.

His father will have sell it to him, and since the transfer is across state lines, it will have to go through an FFL. Since your friend does not have a MA LTC/FID, it will have to be through an FFL in some state other than MA.

Have your friend call up an FFL near his home in CA and arrange for the transfer there. Then have your friend's father ship the gun to the FFL.

Have your friend do it right. These are federal felonies we are talking about if you try to take shortcuts and it all goes bad.

 

[Jose]

If he is in possession of the gun while "traveling," then under exemption h to ch 140 section 129(C), he is allowed to possess the gun, no?

You are still confusing ownership and possession.

MA requires at least an FID for possession. No FID/LTC, no cannot possess gun in MA, even if he owns it.

 

[El Bishop]

And owning and possessing are different. Can you not legally possess a gun in MA that you do not own? So if he doesn't legally own the gun because transfer paperwork was never filled out, then the traveling exemption doesn't apply and he cannot possess it even for the brief time that he is traveling from my car to the check-in desk?