Non-Resident Prohibition on Purchasing Ammo or Guns in MA (even with NR LTC)

[Len-2A Training]

Here's the info that some folks were looking for wrt where/when NRs were banned from purchasing ammo or guns in MA even if they possessed a MA NR LTC.

MGL Ch. 140 S. 129c

(q) was the paragraph that PREVIOUSLY allowed MA NR LTC holders to purchase in MA. This paragraph was removed and thus prohibits such purchases by Non-Residents. [Remember in MA, unlike Free America, if a MGL doesn't allow you to do something specifically, it MUST BE ILLEGAL! ]

Here's the notation in Chief Glidden's book:

NON RESIDENT PURCHASE OF GUNS OR AMMUNITION
(q) Deleted by St. 1998, c. 180, s. 32.

Although I thought this happened after Chapter 180 of the Acts of 1998 was passed, according to Ron's notation, it was section 32 within that bill which removed this capability for non-residents to purchase in MA.

 

[Kevlar]

Len, the change to the law precipitated by the Simon's Rock event occurred in 1996. It was contained as an amendment to the State budget (c.151 of the acts of 1996)...

SECTION 322. The fourth paragraph of said section 129C of said chapter 140, as so appearing, is hereby amended by adding the following clause:-

(u) Any nonresident who is eighteen years of age or older at the time of acquiring a rifle or shotgun from a licensed firearms dealer; provided, however, that such nonresident must hold a valid firearms license from his state of residence; provided, further, that the licensing requirements of such nonresident's state of residence are as stringent as the requirements of the commonwealth for a firearm identification card, as determined by the colonel of the state police who shall, annually, publish a list of those states whose requirements comply with the provisions of this clause.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Kevlar, thanks. Another thing for Jim McKenna to work on as AG . . . force the creation of the list of acceptable state permits as written in this law.

 

[Lank]

I am very excited at the possibility of James McKenna retiring Marhsa Coakley.

 

[milktree]

Holy necrothread resurrection!

Looking at C. 140 § 129C(u) that looks like an exception to the rest of it, and not a requirement.

i.e.: It reads to me that a non-resident can buy ammo in Mass. if (but not *only* if) he has a permit from his home state that is at least as hard to get as a Mass. LTC. (I realize there are no states that issue permits that meet that standard)

However, I can't find any law that says a holder of a Mass. non-resident LTC cannot buy ammo.

I can find where it's illegal to possess ammo in Mass. without an LTC or FID (without making any distinction between a resident and non-resident LTC/FID) and where laws prohibiting transfer/sale that have exceptions for LTC/FID holders (also, no reference to resident or non-resident).

I don't know what C. 140 §129C(q) used to look like, but from context it seems like it used to allow for non-residents without a Mass. LTC to buy ammo in Mass., and its elimination and replacement with 129C(u) made it much harder (effectively impossible).

Can any of you point to actual statute that prohibits the sale of ammo to NR-LTC holders?

 

[not new guy]

Holy necrothread resurrection!

Looking at C. 140 § 129C(u) that looks like an exception to the rest of it, and not a requirement.

i.e.: It reads to me that a non-resident can buy ammo in Mass. if (but not *only* if) he has a permit from his home state that is at least as hard to get as a Mass. LTC. (I realize there are no states that issue permits that meet that standard)

However, I can't find any law that says a holder of a Mass. non-resident LTC cannot buy ammo.

I can find where it's illegal to possess ammo in Mass. without an LTC or FID (without making any distinction between a resident and non-resident LTC/FID) and where laws prohibiting transfer/sale that have exceptions for LTC/FID holders (also, no reference to resident or non-resident).

I don't know what C. 140 §129C(q) used to look like, but from context it seems like it used to allow for non-residents without a Mass. LTC to buy ammo in Mass., and its elimination and replacement with 129C(u) made it much harder (effectively impossible).

Can any of you point to actual statute that prohibits the sale of ammo to NR-LTC holders?

[Remember in MA, unlike Free America, if a MGL doesn't allow you to do something specifically, it MUST BE ILLEGAL! ]

 

[Len-2A Training]

Check out this thread for some of the info on NRs being prohibited from buying ammo in MA. I was present in Gardner Auditorium when a busload of students from Simon Rock college invaded and plead with the legislature to ban the sale of ammo to NRs even if they had a NR LTC.

Getting a permit with a greencard in MA?

 

[milktree]

Check out this thread for some of the info on NRs being prohibited from buying ammo in MA. I was present in Gardner Auditorium when a busload of students from Simon Rock college invaded and plead with the legislature to ban the sale of ammo to NRs even if they had a NR LTC.

Getting a permit with a greencard in MA?

Is this bit you mean?

...and provided further, that an alien permit to possess a rifle or shotgun shall not be valid for the purpose of purchasing firearms or ammunition or ammunition feeding devices therefor;

What the hell is an "alien permit to possess"? Is that a one-use code for "Non-resident FID/LTC"? I can't find any other use of that phrase anywhere in MGL.

If an "alien permit to possess" is *not* an LTC or FID, then where's the actual law that prevents NR-LTC holders from buying ammo?

 

[Len-2A Training]

No, the alien issue is non-US citizens. The thread morphed into the NR issue, as most threads drift off.

What I recall is that the Simon Rock law removed a section of C. 140 that allowed NRs with proper NR LTC to purchase ammo or guns in Mass.

 

[Len-2A Training]

MGL C. 140 S.129 (q) was deleted by C. 180 S. 32 of the Acts of 1998!

 

[milktree]

No, the alien issue is non-US citizens. The thread morphed into the NR issue, as most threads drift off.

What I recall is that the Simon Rock law removed a section of C. 140 that allowed NRs with proper NR LTC to purchase ammo or guns in Mass.

MGL C. 140 S.129 (q) was deleted by C. 180 S. 32 of the Acts of 1998!

OK, let's back up a bit.

Laws don't permit things, they only restrict things. Right? i.e.: You don't need a law to say you *can* do something unless the law is an exception to *another* law that says you *can't*. Right? Nowhere in any law does it say I'm allowed to eat cheese on bread while typing into The Internet, but it's legal because it's NOT prohibited; there's nothing that says I can't.

*removing* a law (or subsection) cannot make something illegal unless that subsection was an exception to something else, right?

For example:

A: It's illegal to possess a gun.
A(a) "A" does not apply to anyone duly licensed by the king.

Now, if you *remove* A(a), that doesn't make possessing a gun illegal, it's the continuing existence of "A" that makes possessing a gun illegal.

So, What is the "A" that causes the removal of MGL C. 140 § 129(q) to make it illegal for NR-LTC holders to buy ammo? (or probably more accurately, for anyone to sell ammo to an NR-LTC holder)

Nowhere can I find a restriction on the sale of ammunition that makes a distinction between regular and NR LTC holders.

-- except for that bizzaro clause about "alien permit to possess", above.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This is MA, where we do have laws that "allow things" as well as laws that prohibit things.

I don't recall the rest of it, but if you check C. 180 S. 32 of the Acts of 1998 you should find more info.

 

[Kevlar]

Holy necrothread resurrection!

No kidding, eh? LOL

I don't know what C. 140 §129C(q) used to look like, but from context it seems like it used to allow for non-residents without a Mass. LTC to buy ammo in Mass., and its elimination and replacement with 129C(u) made it much harder (effectively impossible).

C. 140 s.129C(q) used to read as follows:

"(q) Any nonresident from a contiguous state, provided he is
eighteen years of age or over when acquiring a rifle or shotgun, or
ammunition, provided it is removed from the commonwealth within
fourteen days of such acquisition, and provided that he is in
compliance with his own state law and has the proper firearms license
if required, and provided, further, that in the case of a rifle or shotgun
the seller notifies the chief of police where the purchaser resides of the
transfer, description and serial number of the rifle or shotgun and the
name, address and license number of the purchaser and seller;"

Can any of you point to actual statute that prohibits the sale of ammo to NR-LTC holders?

I believe it's C. 140 S. 131E that only allows residents to purchase.

 

[Boston4567]

No, the alien issue is non-US citizens. The thread morphed into the NR issue, as most threads drift off.

What I recall is that the Simon Rock law removed a section of C. 140 that allowed NRs with proper NR LTC to purchase ammo or guns in Mass.

Kind of an aside, but it sounds like nonresidents used to be able to purchase guns in MA even without an LTC or FID of any kind:

Questions Outweigh Answers In Shooting Spree at College

A Chinese-made SKS semiautomatic assault rifle can be bought for $150. Massachusetts has strict laws governing the sale of such weapons; a resident must obtain a firearms identification card from the local police and wait 30 days for a background check.

But a loophole allows an out-of-state buyer to bypass Massachusetts restrictions, put down cash on a counter and buy an assault rifle as easily as one can buy a personal computer.

Another article said he just had to present his Montana driver's license and he was good to go.

 

[JAD]

No kidding, eh? LOL




C. 140 s.129C(q) used to read as follows:

"(q) Any nonresident from a contiguous state, provided he is
eighteen years of age or over when acquiring a rifle or shotgun, or
ammunition, provided it is removed from the commonwealth within
fourteen days of such acquisition, and provided that he is in
compliance with his own state law and has the proper firearms license
if required, and provided, further, that in the case of a rifle or shotgun
the seller notifies the chief of police where the purchaser resides of the
transfer, description and serial number of the rifle or shotgun and the
name, address and license number of the purchaser and seller;"



I believe it's C. 140 S. 131E that only allows residents to purchase.

In addition to removing MGL c. 140 s. 129C(q), there is also statutory language in MGL c. 140 s. 131F which explicitly prohibits temporary licenses to carry issued under that section from being used for purchasing firearms or ammunition.

 

[milktree]

In addition to removing MGL c. 140 s. 129C(q), there is also statutory language in MGL c. 140 s. 131F which explicitly prohibits temporary licenses to carry issued under that section from being used for purchasing firearms or ammunition.

What's interesting is that it *appears* (depending on "stuff") that someone licensed to sell ammunition under 140§122b, but *not* under §123 can sell ammo to non-resident LTC holders. §123 ("conditions of 140§122") is specific that dealers licensed under 140§122 (but not 122b!) cannot sell ammunition to anyone who isn't licensed under §131 or §129b. (resident LTC & FID)

But that only works if "Temporary License to Carry" (the "real" name for a NR-LTC) is a subset of "License To Carry" and not a completely different beast.

 

[JAD]

What's interesting is that it *appears* (depending on "stuff") that someone licensed to sell ammunition under 140§122b, but *not* under §123 can sell ammo to non-resident LTC holders. §123 ("conditions of 140§122") is specific that dealers licensed under 140§122 (but not 122b!) cannot sell ammunition to anyone who isn't licensed under §131 or §129b. (resident LTC & FID)

But that only works if "Temporary License to Carry" (the "real" name for a NR-LTC) is a subset of "License To Carry" and not a completely different beast.

There is language in MGL c. 140 s. 123 applicable to sellers of ammunition licensed under MGL c. 140 s. 122B which prohibits them from engaging in transactions which are contrary to MGL c. 140 s. 130E. In MGL c. 140 s. 130E the references to license to carry all refer to persons licensed under MGL c 140 s. 131 (i.e. typical resident licensees). I believe that distinction is important because there are circumstances in which MA residents could (theoretically at least) be issued a (temporary)LTC by MSP/ designee under MGL c. 140 s. 131F. As the language of MGL c. 140 s. 131F clearly identifies, licenses issued pursuant to that section (without distinction by residency status) are not valid for purchasing firearms pursuant to MGL c. 140 s. 131E.

There is some language in MGL c. 140 s. 131A regarding issuance of permits to purchase to individuals possessing a temporary LTC (issued under MGL c. 140 s. 131F).

Section 131A. A licensing authority under section one hundred and thirty-one, upon the application of a person qualified to be granted a license thereunder by such authority, may grant to such a person, other than a minor, a permit to purchase, rent or lease a firearm if it appears that such purchase, rental or lease is for a proper purpose, and may revoke such permit at will. The colonel of the state police or a person authorized by him, upon the application of a person licensed under section one hundred and thirty-one F, may grant to such licensee, other than a minor, a permit to purchase, rent or lease a firearm, rifle or shotgun, or to purchase ammunition therefor, if it appears that such purchase, rental or lease is for a proper purpose, and may revoke such permit at will. Such permits shall be issued on forms furnished by the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services shall be valid for not more than ten days after issue, and a copy of every such permit so issued shall within one week thereafter be sent to the said executive director. The licensing authority may impose such restrictions relative to the caliber and capacity of the firearm to be purchased, rented or leased as he deems proper. Whoever knowingly issues a permit in violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not less than five hundred nor more than one thousand dollars and by imprisonment for not less than six months nor more than two years in a jail or house of correction.

The fee for the permits shall be $100, which shall be payable to the licensing authority and shall not be prorated or refunded in case of revocation or denial. The licensing authority shall retain $25 of the fee; $50 of the fee shall be deposited into the general fund of the commonwealth; and $25 of the fee shall be deposited in the Firearms Fingerprint Identity Verification Trust Fund.

I don't know what the state's interpretation of MGL c. 140 s. 131A is. Moreover, it the language of MGL c. 140 s. 131E also doesn't seem to address all potential questions (I don't see language in MGL c. 140 s. 131E that actually allows the sale of rifles or shotguns to a person with a permit to purchase issued under MGL c. 140 s. 131A; nor do I see any language in MGL c. 140 s. 131E which would a resident with a permit to purchase issued under MGL c. 140 s. 131A based on holding a temporary ltc issued under MGL c. 140 s. 131F to purchase anything nor do I how a licensee would be able to sell anything to a non-resident issued a permit to purchase under MGL c. 140 s. 131A based on possessing a termporary LTC issued under MGL c. 140 s. 131F.

It's almost like these various sections were written/revised at different times and weren't synched-up.

Any thoughts?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I do believe that the various sections were indeed written at different times and no, it does not appear (in many places) that anyone tries to verify that when you try to put the jig-saw puzzle of MGLs together that you don't have conflicts or unintended consequences. I point out a number of such problems in my Mass Gun Law Seminar.

FWIW, nobody at the state could remember issuing any permits to purchase and apparently they don't have any such forms in current existence. That said I know some people did get them many, many years ago. But since 1998 it is my understanding from someone that looked into it, that no such forms have existed since that law change.

 

[JAD]

I do believe that the various sections were indeed written at different times and no, it does not appear (in many places) that anyone tries to verify that when you try to put the jig-saw puzzle of MGLs together that you don't have conflicts or unintended consequences. I point out a number of such problems in my Mass Gun Law Seminar.

FWIW, nobody at the state could remember issuing any permits to purchase and apparently they don't have any such forms in current existence. That said I know some people did get them many, many years ago. But since 1998 it is my understanding from someone that looked into it, that no such forms have existed since that law change.

I am pretty confident that an application form exists (somewhere) for a permit to purchase under c. 140 s. 131A, because the Plaintiff's statements of fact in Morin v. Lyver indicate that Morin applied to Northborough for an FID (which he was granted) and a permit to purchase (which was denied).

 

[Boston4567]

I am pretty confident that an application form exists (somewhere) for a permit to purchase under c. 140 s. 131A, because the Plaintiff's statements of fact in Morin v. Lyver indicate that Morin applied to Northborough for an FID (which he was granted) and a permit to purchase (which was denied).

My understanding is that Morin inquired about a PTP only because a court's erroneous interpretation of the law required him to attempt to do so. There is no such thing as a permit to purchase in Massachusetts, and as Len says, there hasn't been for at least a few decades. So there is no form. The failure of Northborough PD and/or DCJIS to provide him with a form or other means to apply served as a constructive denial.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

My understanding is that Morin inquired about a PTP only because a court's erroneous interpretation of the law required him to attempt to do so. There is no such thing as a permit to purchase in Massachusetts, and as Len says, there hasn't been for at least a few decades. So there is no form. The failure of Northborough PD and/or DCJIS to provide him with a form or other means to apply served as a constructive denial.

The problem is a PTP is referenced in law, so it is a ghost item whose spectre is observed only when it serves the needs of the state.

I do know that the state was unable to find any record of a PTP having been issued when Comm2A filed an FOIA/Public records request (forget which). We have found that the FRB deals professionally and in good faith when we make requests for that sort of info, so I doubt there are double secret PTPs that have been issued.