Non police carrying retention holsters?

I get all that. But if you're standing there and for some reason some idjit grabs for your gun. What does bjj teach you to do? Throw them on the ground and attempt a rear naked choke?

It depends on a million things 'what would you do'. BJJ isn't rigid like old martial arts. It's hard to make up scenarios, you need to try a class so you can FEEL how big of a skill gap I'm talking about.

But to humor you, someone reaches for your gun you could always do an arm drag, and throw a bomb of an overhand left behind that, or if the person is charging you while reaching and giving a ton of momentum when you get the arm drag they'll just throw themselves.

In general you would be taught to move off the line of attack, control the space, improve the position, get an attack, then finish the fight.
 
I have used the Blackhawk serpa cqc holsters for years and my dept authorized them for on duty undercover use until recently. Only stopped using them because we switched pistols.
I use them on most of my personal weapons and they are indeed quite safe. Trigger finger control can get people in trouble regardless of what type holster one uses.
Those SERPA style holsters are responsible for a significant number of negligent discharges under stress because of muscle memory with the trigger finger. They've been banned by various LEO groups and training centers because of it.
 
I get all that. But if you're standing there and for some reason some idjit grabs for your gun. What does bjj teach you to do? Throw them on the ground and attempt a rear naked choke? Their hand is still on the gun. That is the Point of this thread...
I'm not here to discuss my complete lack of knowledge about bjj vs pjj, vs Krav maga. I realize they're great skills to have, whether you're armed or not. Im here to ask for advice regarding the immediate response to a gun grab situation.

You ever have someone put a rear naked choke on you? You go out in about 3 seconds, and even less if you have an elevated heart rate. And theres about a million chokes. I have a series I like to use that works if your opponent is wearing a hoodie, I have 8 chokes just for the hood. You can also use your sleeve, or their jacket lapel. You can choke standing, too. Anywhere on the clothing that has a reinforced seam can be used as a rope to break your limbs or pop your head off your shoulders like a zit.
 
Those SERPA style holsters are responsible for a significant number of negligent discharges under stress because of muscle memory with the trigger finger. They've been banned by various LEO groups and training centers because of it.

I kinda don't see it, hit flapper to release versus putting your finger into the box and pulling a 10 lb trigger. But I get it, statistics over time showed xyz, still like the holster - positive mechanical clack for retention, shake it like crazy no dropping the pistol, comes out like butter when you want it to.
 
I kinda don't see it, hit flapper to release versus putting your finger into the box and pulling a 10 lb trigger. But I get it, statistics over time showed xyz, still like the holster - positive mechanical clack for retention, shake it like crazy no dropping the pistol, comes out like butter when you want it to.

Under real pants-shitting stress you lose about 90% of your dexterity.
 
It depends on a million things 'what would you do'. BJJ isn't rigid like old martial arts. It's hard to make up scenarios, you need to try a class so you can FEEL how big of a skill gap I'm talking about.

But to humor you, someone reaches for your gun you could always do an arm drag, and throw a bomb of an overhand left behind that, or if the person is charging you while reaching and giving a ton of momentum when you get the arm drag they'll just throw themselves.

In general you would be taught to move off the line of attack, control the space, improve the position, get an attack, then finish the fight.
Thank you.

What I've put together thus far:

1. Hardware. Have a holster that is snug/concealed/maybe has retention. Way better than some cheapy flop job.
2. Software. Get persons hand off my gun, whatever it takes. Threat awareness/reaction time. Martial arts training, cardio.
3. Footware. Get away from person, hopefully I'm in my sneakers.
4. Loungeware. Call police. It's not my job to take the trash out.

Yes, this is an ideal scenario where Noone gets shot.
 
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Thank you.

What I've put together thus far:

1. Hardware. Have a holster that is snug/concealed/maybe has retention. Way better than some cheapy flop job.
1. Software. Get persons hand off my gun, whatever it takes. Threat awareness/reaction time. Martial arts training, cardio.
2. Footware. Get away from person, hopefully I'm in my sneakers.
3. Loungeware. Call police. It's not my job to take the trash out.

Yeah. Plus avoiding a situation where someone's close to you in the first place. There's also something called the primary weapon rule. If a weapon is in play you need to correct that before you do anything else, even if you have to make a sacrifice you never take your attention off the weapon.

Staying concealed helps alot. Keeping the element of surprise. If someone's reaching for your gun you've lost that.
 
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3. Footware. Get away from person, hopefully I'm in my sneakers.

I don't want to drift this thread, but I do want to say that your point above is extremely important.

I think that the most important piece of defensive advice is "wear shoes you can run in." And if I had to pick safety gear, it is shoes first, cell phone second. Everything else comes after these; being able to move and communicate is first.

Note that shoes and phone can apply to fire, flood, pestilence, killer bees, and medical emergencies. There are a lot of bad things that can happen, and good general preparation helps with most of them.
 
Ability
Opportunity
Jeopardy

f*** the law, if these are satisfied you shoot
I liked the old:
Means
Intent
Opportunity

Simple, to the point. Way better than Severity of the crime, Immediacy of the threat, Resistance to arrest... I'm teaching now. It doesn't translate to 'normal person' speak easily and requires an interpreter to explain it in court.
 
I liked the old:
Means
Intent
Opportunity

Simple, to the point. Way better than Severity of the crime, Immediacy of the threat, Resistance to arrest... I'm teaching now. It doesn't translate to 'normal person' speak easily and requires an interpreter to explain it in court.

I always taught

Ability = usually a weapon, a force multiplier representing disparity, could also be young vs elderly, male vs female, one person vs multiple attackers
Opportunity = can you escape? can you push a table over and make a barricade? or are you cornered
Jeopardy = the part usually argued in court, immediacy

look at jeopardy as the ethical part. did you do everything you can to avoid using lethal force yet still face immediate threat of (what a reasonable person would think given the level of knowledge they had at the time) bodily harm

the reasonable part is the part the lawyers fight over
 
Those SERPA style holsters are responsible for a significant number of negligent discharges under stress because of muscle memory with the trigger finger. They've been banned by various LEO groups and training centers because of it.
I carried in a SERPA for 15 or so years. Never had an issue. Then again, I trained with it, I recently put it back on as I'm using an HnK for the next couple of weeks again. I have one for my 1911, but I have since moved to IWB carry and would never open carry. It's just dumb. *puts on fireproof suit* (I will make an exception if OC is legal and CC isn't)
 
I always taught

Ability = usually a weapon, a force multiplier representing disparity, could also be young vs elderly, male vs female, one person vs multiple attackers
Opportunity = can you escape? can you push a table over and make a barricade? or are you cornered
Jeopardy = the part usually argued in court, immediacy

look at jeopardy as the ethical part. did you do everything you can to avoid using lethal force yet still face immediate threat of (what a reasonable person would think given the level of knowledge they had at the time) bodily harm

the reasonable part is the part the lawyers fight over
Our verbage was different:
Means-Ability to cause harm.
Opportunity- The ability to actually cause harm
Intent- Action taken that made you believe harm was coming.

A guy with a knife behind a 1/2 wall saying he's 'gonna gut you, boy'. Has the means (knife), has shown intent (saying he's gonna gut you), but does not have the opportunity (unless he has really long arms)(you could argue him throwing the knife, but good luck with that). No shoot. He crawls over the 1/2 wall and now has unrestricted access to you, can shoot. It all boils down to how well you articulate 'why' you did what you did.

With most instances, it's cleaner with a gun. We always used a knife to draw lines that were easier to see. If a guy pulls a gun and starts to point it at you, that's pretty clear cut, but not much of a training cycle.

E-cookie for the movie reference.
 
What!
I have my gun ready anytime things are sketchy.
Don’t let people get the drop on you!!!!

You know about the Teuller drill, I'm sure. If someone can get to knife distance within your reaction time then they can also get into icecream scoop range before you can react. You get double legged onto your face you're not going to just recover, draw your glock from your level 7 retention holster, and get 2 well placed shots on target.
 
You know about the Teuller drill, I'm sure. If someone can get to knife distance within your reaction time then they can also get into icecream scoop range before you can react. You get double legged onto your face you're not going to just recover, draw your glock from your level 7 retention holster, and get 2 well placed shots on target.
Always have a wheel gun in the pocket and a heavy mug of stout! That puts them on their heels for the heavy to come out!
 
I will be grabbing breaking fingers and poking eyes. You do anything to survive when it goes to the ground!

Rule #1 is to cover your head, if someone knows how to tuck their fists and elbows you won't easily get a finger or an eye poke.
 
The Safariland triple retention holsters that most cops and I believe .mil use are good quality but really slow down your draw. Say what you want about the SERPA, it is very fast for a triple retention holster. If they worked with a decent weapon light, I would still be using one.
 
Under real pants-shitting stress you lose about 90% of your dexterity.

I get the concept and only have been attacked by a human a few times in my life, never one with a gun, but honestly the near death calls I've had (more related to motorcycles, falls, commercial fishing, although getting attacked too) I tend to surprise myself - ie no time to think, perfect coordination and how the hell did I manage do that?

Usually it's when you do have time to think that's the problem. Also been so low on sleep and stressed out my hands didn't work right.

I guess my point is, my experience, fight or flight inspires superhuman coordination, but stress over something more drawn out like a stand off and I can see trouble with a lot of things.
 
Yeah. Plus avoiding a situation where someone's close to you in the first place. There's also something called the primary weapon rule. If a weapon is in play you need to correct that before you do anything else, even if you have to make a sacrifice you never take your attention off the weapon.

Staying concealed helps alot. Keeping the element of surprise. If someone's reaching for your gun you've lost that.
Proximity is somewhat unavoidable for most people. Public transportation, elevators, checkout lines for example.
 
I would argue the theory of escalation of force

I was just about to type that but you have to remember Florida has a very strong stand your ground law I would point to the theory of escalation of force you can use whatever level of force one above what is being applied to you to defend yourself.
The Zimmerman ('murder') trial is documented on YouTube; you should watch it.

George Zimmerman was on his back at the time, mounted, having his face pummeled and his skull beaten against a concrete paver by the 'victim' (Trayvon Martin).

Stand your ground had nothing to do with it.
 
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Anyone here (not a cop) carry concealed with a retention type holster? I don't even know if they exist. In the off chance there is an unavoidable hands on scuffle: grapple, rolling on the ground etc. What mechanisms or techniques could prevent a gun grab?
when I carry owb under a jacket or something its usually in a safariland ALS holster. I will not carry owb without some type of retention holster.
 
The Zimmerman ('murder') trial is documented on YouTube; you should watch it.

George Zimmerman was on his back at the time, mounted, having his face pummeled and his skull beaten against a concrete paver by the 'victim' (Trayvon Martin).

Stand your ground had nothing to do with it.
My point is that depending on where you are, the laws and thresholds are different.

Florida has this “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

Notice there is nothing that says in your home, etc, it says if you are legally able to be there you don't have to retreat.

Now in NH, Stand Your Ground only applies in your home, but there is a bill moving thru the Legislature that will change that so it applies to your car. and maybe other places.

'Stand your ground' from your car advances in New Hampshire

But IMHO Stand Your Ground does not have to be law for you to defend yourself, I use the escalation of force theory, If I am confronted with deadly force or imminent severe bodily injury, I am allowed to repel that threat / attack/ assault with enough force to stop it, with the caveat of disparity of force.

I know I sound like a broken record when we discuss this stuff, but I am a disciple of Massad Ayoob when it comes to such things, and have been for close to 40 years since I first read his book " In The Gravest Extreme"

Here is one of many interviews with him on the subject:

 
I'd prefer not to slow my draw or add an unnecessary complication. But I am exploring the concept of additional retention. Whether that is by hardware or software.
on my thumb break holster, your thumb literally lands on the snap when you reach for the weapon. With practice, it is a seamless draw.
 
To some extent it depends on what I'm carrying and where I'm going, but I do have a preference for a retention holster, a basic thumb break. Of course I just plain hate kydex. Good leather is the way to go.
 
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