NO WEAPONS ALLOWED - sign

[Mike1911]

[size=+2]NO WEAPONS ALLOWED[/size] sign. Most of us have seen them in malls, stores, sporting events, schools, airports just about everywhere. What are we, law abiding LTC holders to do?

Leave it home? Lock it up in the car/truck? Or say the 'the hell with it I carring it anyway'.

As a rule I don't carry much (LTC - Class A, for over 35 years). What do you do? What can they do to you if catch you with it ignoring the "sign"?

Thanks for the replies.

Mike1911

 

[Fsorrent]

I do what 100% of criminals do. I stop whatever I was planning to do. Read the sign carefully, making sure not to miss anything. If I am planning to commit a crime w/ my firearm, then I have to reconsider and leave immediately. Those signs are great deterant. When criminals see those signs, they are like "crap, another place I can't rob w/ my gun!!!".

PS. large amounts of satire and sarcasm!! concealed = concealed

 

[jhblaze1]

[size=+2]NO WEAPONS ALLOWED[/size] sign. Most of us have seen them in malls, stores, sporting events, schools, airports just about everywhere. What are we, law abiding LTC holders to do?

Leave it home? Lock it up in the car/truck? Or say the 'the hell with it I carring it anyway'.

As a rule I don't carry much (LTC - Class A, for over 35 years). What do you do? What can they do to you if catch you with it ignoring the "sign"?

Thanks for the replies.

Mike1911

From what I've read in a number of similar threads on this forum, MA signs are non binding (other than of course statutorily prohibited places) and thus if you were "caught", the most they could do is make you leave. If you refused to leave, they could call the police who could charge you with trespassing.

 

[Producer]

carry

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

From what I've read in a number of similar threads on this forum, MA signs are non binding (other than of course statutorily prohibited places) and thus if you were "caught", the most they could do is make you leave. If you refused to leave, they could call the police who could charge you with trespassing.

IANAL: That is exactly what I have read on this forum before. If they do ask you to leave, you MUST; otherwise you will be trespassing and that will ruin your day.

 

[mark056]

carry

There are plenty of folks on this forum who talk about individual rights, property rights etc. If I own property, and I don't want you carrying a weapon on my property, I mean what I say. If I see you carrying a weapon, and if I ask you to leave and you don't comply, then I will have you arrested for tresspassing plain and simple. You might not like it, and you might think it's wrong, but if it is on my property, it is my right.

On the other hand, if you are discrete then how the hell am I going to know if you are carrying or not? Discretion is always the better part of valor.

One thing though: don't say you respect the rights of others, especially property owners and please spare me the crap about malls and corporate America and all of that being impersonal entities. If you claim to be capitalists, then you have to support the rights of all those banks, corporations, etc. who own all of those malls, stores etc., because that is capitalism. If you don't support the rights of property owners, then it sounds to me like you having been reading a little too much Karl Marx.

Mark L.

 

[jhblaze1]

There are plenty of folks on this forum who talk about individual rights, property rights etc. If I own property, and I don't want you carrying a weapon on my property, I mean what I say. If I see you carrying a weapon, and if I ask you to leave and you don't comply, then I will have you arrested for tresspassing plain and simple. You might not like it, and you might think it's wrong, but if it is on my property, it is my right.

On the other hand, if you are discrete then how the hell am I going to know if you are carrying or not? Discretion is always the better part of valor.

One thing though: don't say you respect the rights of others, especially property owners and please spare me the crap about malls and corporate America and all of that being impersonal entities. If you claim to be capitalists, then you have to support the rights of all those banks, corporations, etc. who own all of those malls, stores etc., because that is capitalism. If you don't support the rights of property owners, then it sounds to me like you having been reading a little too much Karl Marx.

Mark L.

you have a good point but I wouldn't go as far as saying that not complying with a posted sign means you must have no respect for property rights and thus your a commie. IMO, if and when I'm carrying is no one's business and if i choose to carry into the mall I will. If I'm discovered, I'll leave when asked (thus respecting the property rights of the owners). But I won't put myself in the position that the mall shooting victims did by complying with an idiotic "rule".

 

[Admin]

carry

+1

ETA: I agree with Mark's post as well.

 

[dwarven1]

One thing though: don't say you respect the rights of others, especially property owners and please spare me the crap about malls and corporate America and all of that being impersonal entities. If you claim to be capitalists, then you have to support the rights of all those banks, corporations, etc. who own all of those malls, stores etc., because that is capitalism. If you don't support the rights of property owners, then it sounds to me like you having been reading a little too much Karl Marx.

I will comply with those signs on the day that the place I'm visiting assigns me a personal body guard for as long as I'm on those premises.

Or else I'll go in long enough to tell the manager that I WON'T be shopping there and WHY.

 

[MichaelJ]

"What sign?"

 

[Fsorrent]

Technically one can argue that you violate ones rights by telling them what they can or can't have...

 

[mark056]

Technically one can argue that you violate ones rights by telling them what they can or can't have...

NOT IF YOU ARE ON MY PROPERTY !!!!

Mark L.

 

[mark056]

Or else I'll go in long enough to tell the manager that I WON'T be shopping there and WHY.

Which Ross, of course, is your right. I also think that if someone knew that you were carrying on their property and they asked you to leave, you would, because you are a stand-up type person who respects the rights of others.

As long as one is willing to accept the consequences of their choices, then it really is no big deal.

Mark L.

 

[rwl1955]

Sign

[size=+2]NO WEAPONS ALLOWED[/size] sign. Most of us have seen them in malls, stores, sporting events, schools, airports just about everywhere. What are we, law abiding LTC holders to do?

Leave it home? Lock it up in the car/truck? Or say the 'the hell with it I carring it anyway'.

As a rule I don't carry much (LTC - Class A, for over 35 years). What do you do? What can they do to you if catch you with it ignoring the "sign"?

Thanks for the replies.

Mike1911

*******
I ignore it.

 

[Scrivener]

There are plenty of folks on this forum who talk about individual rights, property rights etc. If I own property, and I don't want you carrying a weapon on my property, I mean what I say. If I see you carrying a weapon, and if I ask you to leave and you don't comply, then I will have you arrested for tresspassing plain and simple. You might not like it, and you might think it's wrong, but if it is on my property, it is my right.

On the other hand, if you are discrete then how the hell am I going to know if you are carrying or not? Discretion is always the better part of valor.

Absolutely right. I always loved dealing with the pontificating cretins declaring that a mall was public property (wrong) and, therefore, they or their obnoxious spawn could do anything they wanted (wrong again) because they "paid taxes" (3 strikes; you're out - especially coming from a renter a town away!).

 

[tuna]

Or else I'll go in long enough to tell the manager that I WON'T be shopping there and WHY.

The same, no matter if I'm carrying or not. I'll also make sure that I mention to my friends that I won't go there and why, some of them will take that into consideration when opting between using that store or one a little distance away.

 

[FunYun]

NOT IF YOU ARE ON MY PROPERTY !!!!

Mark L.

Is your property normally open to the public?

Did you receive money in the form of tax breaks or other "incentives" to build it?


Does one right trump another? Rights

"This metaphor of trumps leads naturally to the question of whether there is any right that has priority to absolutely all other normative considerations: whether there is an "ace of rights." Gewirth (1981) asserts that there is at least one such absolute right: the right of all persons not to be made the victim of a homicidal project. For such a right to be absolute it would have to trump every other consideration whatsoever: other rights, economic efficiency, saving lives, everything. Not all would agree with Gewirth that even this very powerful right overrides every conceivable normative concern. Some would think it might be justifiable to infringe even this right were this somehow necessary, for example, to prevent the deaths of a great many people. If it is permissible to kill one in order to save a billion, then not even Gewirth's right is absolute."

ETA: Personaly, I go with the above as the "Ace of Rights", cause if your dead, what good are rights? Not to mention that carrying a firearm has no effect on others rights, only their want's.

The real question is, does exercising my right to self-defense actually damage your right to property?

If I carry a firearm onto you property and you don't want me to, what happens? You still own your property, I can still protect myself, and the world keeps on spinning.

Like a grocery, you can put up all the wet floor signs you want, it does not remove my right to seek reparations for injuries incurred while slipping on your floor. If anything, the sign proves you have knowledge of the dangers, but still allowed people to go there.

Basically, you can either let people on you property or not, but you cannot add stipulations that remove other peoples rights. IIRC the courts have also rulled this way.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

NOT IF YOU ARE ON MY PROPERTY !!!!

Mark L.

Your private property correct? I respect your right to make this decision about private property.

The public is not welcome on your private property as a lessee, licensee or invitee. That is where we differ.

Malls, banks, etc. are open to the public. Therefore, by hanging these signs, which have no legal meaning in Mass, they are practicing a discriminatory business practice. They are trying to prevent law abiding citizens from exercising their God given right of self-defense.


No Blacks! No Irish! No Asians! No Hispanics! No Guns!

All prejudicial and discriminatory in my book.

 

[Mr Weebles]

A mall is not private property. Just because something is open to the public does not make it a public building.

They can certainly ask you to leave.

 

[drgrant]

IMO there is a considerable difference between someone's house, a business where one might be employed, and a business where one is a patron that just walked in off the street. IMO businesses open to the public should be held to a different standard, at least slightly so. These businesses can still kick people out for things they don't like, but generally speaking there appear to be legal, or at least, market dictated limits on what they can and cannot get away with. For instance, if the local home despot had metal detectors and x ray belts, how many people would shop there? In order for home despot to enforce a no gun policy, they essentially would have to violate my personal space to do so.

In reality, if the sign isn't legally binding (as they aren't in MA and most of the rest of new england) I'll just ignore
the damned thing, at least in the case of where the business is open to the public. The "mall" owner or whoever is free to tell me to leave, if they want, right after they, somehow find my concealed firearm. . If they actually bother to check people (eg, by using metal detectors, etc) then I'll either make a decision to go unarmed, or make the (better) decision to not go in at all, and express my displeasure towards the owner or management.

Edit: As what was mentioned in the WorstBuy thread, legally speaking, the stores or whatnot still have the
upper hand.... however, it might come back to bite them later when patrons are routinely shopping online or
elsewhere simply because interacting with the store in a direct manner is getting closer and closer to that of
visiting someone in prison, or being accused of a crime that they have no probable cause to believe you
committed. (those people stuck in a queue as they're leaving the store, are essentially guilty until proven
otherwise, more or less... otherwise they wouldn't chase a guy with a best buy bag out into the parking lot... )

I suppose, it's their right to do such BS, but I think in the long run they're not doing themselves any
favors by being less customer friendly.

-Mike

 

[Jose]

NOT IF YOU ARE ON MY PROPERTY !!!!

Mark L.

You don't get to do WHATEVER you want when your property is open to the public for business. Nor should you.

Truly private property, where no one but you or your guests have any business being there, yes. Set your rules.

Private property for the puspose of engaging the public in business, no, you don't have carte blanche to abridge other people's rights.

 

[dwarven1]

I seem to recall that there was a court case several years ago where a group wanted to pass out some kind of flyers, and the mall where they were doing it objected and had them removed. The group sued, saying that the mall was infringing on their First Amendment rights. I believe that the court found FOR the group, saying that the mall was now the equivalent of public property since that was where people congregated.

Wish I could remember more, but I'm sure that someone out there will remember this case and maybe know more.

Any way, there is a huge difference between my home, where if you're not invited you have no business being, and my (hypothetical) store, where I have the doors open and the public is invited to come in and shop.

 

[Scrivener]

I seem to recall that there was a court case several years ago where a group wanted to pass out some kind of flyers, and the mall where they were doing it objected and had them removed. The group sued, saying that the mall was infringing on their First Amendment rights. I believe that the court found FOR the group, saying that the mall was now the equivalent of public property since that was where people congregated.

Wish I could remember more, but I'm sure that someone out there will remember this case and maybe know more.

Any way, there is a huge difference between my home, where if you're not invited you have no business being, and my (hypothetical) store, where I have the doors open and the public is invited to come in and shop.

There was such a case in, IIRC, California []. It likened a mall to the old town square for FIRST Amendment purposes. I'm not sure I'd trust a case out of LaLa Land decided under a different amendment as a basis for an incursion of property rights.

The far more recent and applicable cases concerning carrying on employer property would be a more suitable basis.

 

[dwarven1]

There was such a case in, IIRC, California []. It likened a mall to the old town square for FIRST Amendment purposes.

That sounds like the case I heard about. I didn't realize it was state-level; somehow I thought it was either a circuit court of appeals or Supreme Court level.

 

[Producer]

You are right Mark056, however;

I sneak booze and cameras into Fenway Park and various concerts. I have worn metal spiked shoes at the course. No Diving = Time for a cannonball!

Doesn't necessarily mean I disrespecting these places. Its just these rules don't apply to me .

At Fenway I feel it's not fair that a I am restricted to buy booze from one vendor, or at the course only pro's can wear metal cleats, and I will not sue if I break my neck diving into a three foot pool..

Same with "NO WEAPONS ALLOWED". I don't trust that someone else can protect me from a firefight. However, I am sure the property owner means well....... Maybe this is more of a legal liability issue.

 

[drgrant]

The far more recent and applicable cases concerning carrying on employer property would be a more suitable basis.

Yeah, closer, but no cigar. In the case of employment, likely someone is signing a contract/agreement. Passing by a sign with small print on it is not the same as signing an at least (somewhat) legally binding contract- mainly due to the fact that there are likely a metric ton of cases which support "employers rights" at least in states which support "at will" employment. There probably aren't a whole hell of a lot of cases covering people off the street bringing guns in malls when the mall had a sign saying they weren't allowed to . Most of this is because if the patron is "detected" somehow they tell the mall to FOAD and just leave, no court case necessary.

-Mike

 

[Another_David]

I see people carry all the time at the mall--they're called police officers. If these signs don't apply to them I don't see why they should apply to me.

If asked to leave private property you comply. If it's your employer and you're asked to leave then you don't have a job. Your choice.

 

[clinotus]

I've never seen one of those signs.

 

[Bruce for NH State Rep]

"Sorry, no reada da English."

Those signs had better be printed in every language and dialect known to be spoken on the North American land mass, or it's discriminatory hate speech.

 

[MaverickNH]

Some people are the 1st, 2nd (or 3rd) cars through the light just turned red..
Some people turn right ignoring "No Right Turn on Red" signs.
Some people exceed the speed limit.
etc, etc, etc, ...

They benefit themselves alone and inconvenience, if not outright endanger, others.

Some people carry on private property against the expressed wish of the owner(s).

The pro-gun folks believe they benefit themselves and others without endangering anyone.

The anti-gun folks believe they benefit nobody and endanger others.

You have to make your choice and live with it.