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No Taxes!? How would we fix the roads!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by calsdad, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    One of the more inane arguments I constantly hear from people defending why our government needs to tax us at such exhorbitant levels is that we all apparently will just shrivel up and die if nobody is around the fix the roads.

    Yeah right:

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/09/hawaii.volunteers.repair/index.html
     
    1 person likes this.

  2. Len-2A Training

    Len-2A Training Instructor Instructor NES Life Member NES Member

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    I'm curious what it cost them to fix the road.

    I'm sure that it wasn't more than a small fraction of the $4M that the gov't would have spent.
     
  3. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    I pulled this from another forum - one of the posters there made the following comment:


    Looking at the pictures in the original story - it looks to me like he is probably getting close to the truth.

    This whole thing just goes to show how much of a boondoggle a lot of "state" road projects are.
     
  4. mikem317

    mikem317

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    I don't like taxes, because I don't want what the state is peddling. I don't want your wars, your economic interventions, your nanny-statism. I just want to be left alone and I don't want you to steal the fruits of my labor.
     
  5. freedom2012

    freedom2012

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    Then what the hell is the gas tax for?
     
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  6. Jose

    Jose Guest

    Welfare
     
  7. glostamon

    glostamon NES Member

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    DEVIL Patricks draperies,a big ole' cadillac or his new "Gas-Guzzeler SUV, extended vacations in Jamaica w/ elements of the MSP as private security. High paying Psudeo state jobs for close allies. Building a large "Pot" for your national political aspirations.
     
  8. Climbnsink

    Climbnsink

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    FYI - Hawaii had the biggest percentage for Obama(VT was second) and one of the recent tax rankings put HI as second highest tax burden(VT was number 1). There should be no lack of money or state employees to fix the roads.
     
  9. FPrice

    FPrice Retired Zoomie NES Life Member NES Member

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    I think it's to pay for Billy Bulger's retirement.
     
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  10. glostamon

    glostamon NES Member

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    Good one![wink]
     
  11. Horrible

    Horrible NES Member

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    Taxes and tolls. I thought the TOLLS were for the roads. Maybe its the gas tax? Could be the sales tax? Possibly the cigarrette tax? No, must be the excise tax? Property tax? State Income tax? Federal Income tax?

    How many taxes do we need to fix the damn roads? Seriously?
     
  12. Horrible

    Horrible NES Member

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    A good quick comparison. MA has a budget this year of $28B. We have a deficit of ~ $2B. That means they plan to spend $30B this fiscal year. Do you know what the state budget is for North Carolina, a much larger state land-wise and somewhat comparable population wise (NC pop 8.0M peeps, MA 6.3M)

    Answer - $19B!!!!

    Why do we need to spend 35% - 40% more per year than a state the size of NC? What benefit do we get that they don't? I guess that is why people are moving out of this crappy state.
     
  13. PaulD

    PaulD

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    Not to excuse the the waste and corruption in MA but North Carolina doesn't have the burden of winter weather that is brutal on roads in this state. Also, their public schools suck.
     
  14. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    According to this table:

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs04/pdf/hm20.pdf

    North Carolina has 102,666 miles of roads, Massachusetts has 35,783 miles.

    With that large of a disparity I doubt that the burden of winter weather has any affect at all on the vast disparity of state spending. Especially when you consider that North Carolina has approximately 1 1/2 million MORE people than MA does (which should translate into more mileage driven on the roads).

    In fact when you consider that North Carolina has so many more miles of roads there are other expenses involved - for instance highway crews will have many more miles to drive than here in MA.

    Sucky public schools and low taxes might be seen as a benefit in many people's minds. Especially down South where there are many people would prefer to keep their money and home school or send their child to private school so they are not exposed to 12 years of indoctrination in liberal bullshit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  15. dwarven1

    dwarven1 Appleseed Instructor Dealer NES Member

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    Having driven through North Carolina in winter, I call BS on that argument - they get some damn large ice storms there. That can't be good for the roads.
     
  16. PaulD

    PaulD

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    I never said winter weather accounts for all of the disparity (and Dwarven, call BS all you want, winters are way easier down there, frost heaves are much less common) but only some of it. NC doesn't have to deal with nearly as much plowing or winter road treatment (which itself leads to more road and bridge deterioration).

    The benefits of the better public schools are a matter of opinion but if your goal is to get into college, MA public schools will serve the student better. Further, NC has a higher state income tax than MA and an effectively higher sales tax since they have both state and local sales taxes.

    If you look at this table, MA actually rates better than NC in terms of tax burden as a % of personal income. Obviously, MA is taking more in business taxes and NC is putting more of the burden on individuals.

    http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/07taxbur.html

    I'm no fan of the amount of government waste in this state but I like to see apples to apples comparisons.
     
  17. Jose

    Jose Guest

    I thought the point of school was to learn, and more importantly to learn how to learn, and not to score high enough to get into college.

    Did you have kids in the NC public school system? Which one? Public schools are not one monolithic organization.
     
  18. Yelena

    Yelena

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    Wonderful response to IRS instead of sending them a check.
     
  19. Yelena

    Yelena

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    Most public schools suck, no matter how much you invest in them.
     
  20. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    The question is - does the ground freeze down there the way it does here. PaulD does have somewhat of a point: winters here ARE harder on the roads than they would be in North Carolina. I doubt that explains the massive disparity in the state budgets though.
     
  21. TomH

    TomH

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    Nice, taking things into their own hands and probably doing it at a FRACTION of the cost! These guys are true Americans!
     
  22. Greg

    Greg

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    What is the cost per mile of road in MA ?

    I heard some crazy figure in the millions.

    I wonder how this figure would compare to other states 'cost per mile' of road.
     
  23. PaulD

    PaulD

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    Who said anything about test scores? The last I checked, SATs aren't the sole entrance requirement for most colleges and universities.

    Also, nice straw man on having kids in the NC system. I do have a few good friends down there and the kids are going to private schools because of the quality of the public schools.
     
  24. calsdad

    calsdad NES Member

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    And yet I am sure they still have to continue to pay taxes into the system to support the public schools.
     
  25. PaulD

    PaulD

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    They certainly do and, in fact, they seem to have a worse tax burden than I do. We haven't done a line item by line item comparison though.
     
  26. sdavid

    sdavid

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    If this took place in MA how long would it take officials to arrest the lot of them for "trespassing" and "destruction of public property"?
     
  27. Horrible

    Horrible NES Member

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    Have you ever been to Western NC, up in the Mountains? The climate is pretty close to what we see here in MA. The Northern part of the state Greensboro, Raliegh, Chapel Hill, Durham, etc. see a couple of snowstorms a year.
     
  28. Horrible

    Horrible NES Member

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    Has anyone ever been able to prove a correlation between spending money and quality of schools? Don't private schools in MA spend a tenth of what public schools spend and have far better test scores? I don't claim to the know the answers, but everyone assumes the more you spend, the better the school system. I haven't seen any rock solid proof of this.
     
  29. HTRN

    HTRN Instructor Dealer NES Member

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    One reason private schools perform better: No unions.

    Same reason the bid 3 are hurting.

    We will NEVER see public schools fixed. That is because unions don't like competition and the true goal of govt schools (As laid out by the "progressives" in the early 1900's) is indoctrination. Teach them enough to do a job effectively, but not enough to ask questions.
     
  30. jobowker

    jobowker

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    Private schools and charter schools can spend less and have better test scores because they stack the deck. The waiting list to get into an inner city charter school is huge, and as a result only the best kids get in.
    Private schools cost money, so if your parents are on welfare, you're not getting in. If your parents have college degrees, a decent 401k, and a healthy amount of disposable income, then you can go to a private school.

    Public schools have no choice. they take the good kids and the bad kids.

    If you compare two public schools and one gets more money per pupil, chances are the scores will be higher. Go to one of the public education sites which shows MCAS scores along with spending per student, and I can guarantee that Manchester By the Sea or Andover will have a higher cost per student and higher mcas scores than Saugus or Dorchester.
     

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