No national gun registry?

[teaser452]

According to the article, they can trace a gun to its owner in about 5 days. And yet at the end of the article the ATF guy says there is no database.

http://www.fox25boston.com/news/tracking-the-gun-used-to-kill-sean-collier/493833816

Also, I thought the federal gov was explicitly told not to store this information. Maybe it's just late and I'm missing something.

 

[Zappa]

Allegedly there is no computerized national database, but all the 4473 forms eventually go back to the BATFE once an FFL ceases doing business and gives up his license.

 

[drgrant]

Also, I thought the federal gov was explicitly told not to store this information. Maybe it's just late and I'm missing something.

You're missing the fact that the ATF just goes back to the original manufacturer and they follow the trail of bread crumbs through FFLs. There's paper on pretty much everything, unless its 9000 years old or theres a break in the chain somewhere (like the original purchaser dying or something, etc. ).

-Mike

 

[MachineHead]

You're missing the fact that the ATF just goes back to the original manufacturer and they follow the trail of bread crumbs through FFLs. There's paper on pretty much everything, unless its 9000 years old or theres a break in the chain somewhere (like the original purchaser dying or something, etc. ).

-Mike

^^^This is how it goes.

 

[PEW]

I have posted it before, but there is more to this puzzle than the ATF 'following the paper trail'

In 2013 a Maine FFL was blatantly run out of business by the ATF for refusing to allow agents to use hand scanners to scan ALL OF HIS 4473 FORMS.

I think its pretty well established that the ATF can copy one or a couple forms that relate to a current investigation, but this was a blanket attempt to copy all 1,700+ 4473s. Tell me again the ATF isn't creating a computerized, searchable database.


http://www.fosters.com/article/20140501/GJNEWS03/140509905

http://freedomoutpost.com/atf-agent...ple-times-threatens-owner-license-revocation/

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/16/maine-gun-store-owner-in-dispute-with-atf/

 

[leewongfei]

I have posted it before, but there is more to this puzzle than the ATF 'following the paper trail'

In 2013 a Maine FFL was blatantly run out of business by the ATF for refusing to allow agents to use hand scanners to scan ALL OF HIS 4473 FORMS.

I think its pretty well established that the ATF can copy one or a couple forms that relate to a current investigation, but this was a blanket attempt to copy all 1,700+ 4473s. Tell me again the ATF isn't creating a computerized, searchable database.


http://www.fosters.com/article/20140501/GJNEWS03/140509905

http://freedomoutpost.com/atf-agent...ple-times-threatens-owner-license-revocation/

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/16/maine-gun-store-owner-in-dispute-with-atf/

Wow, thats pretty messed up.

 

[drgrant]

I have posted it before, but there is more to this puzzle than the ATF 'following the paper trail'

I won't dispute that but the primary MO of the ATF/NTC is to just follow the bread crumbs.

Of course they want a bigger, centralized database.

-Mike

 

[MAGA99]

I forsee a whole lot of burnt down gun stores in the future....

 

[hv55maxx]

I forsee a whole lot of burnt down gun stores in the future....

an excess of end mill bit sales will do nicely

 

[xtry51]

I personally wouldn't worry about the ATF. It's the intelligence agencies and DHS you need to be worried about. If you think they aren't logging every single digital transaction that occurs, you're naive. I guarantee there's more than one database of guns and gun related items that is searchable. You're just not going to hear about it.

If you want a "ghost gun", pay cash for everything through personal, face to face transactions only and build something on an 80% lower. No emails, no payapl, no calling or texting. Leave your phone at home so you can't be tracked and take an Uber to a gun show. Buy things from people you've never done business with before.

Even then you're likely on surveillance cameras. But at least you're not being GPS logged on your phone or showing up on a plate reader scan while parked at the gun show.

You need a lot of tin foil to stay "off grid", if that's what you want.

 

[JRLB]

I personally wouldn't worry about the ATF. It's the intelligence agencies and DHS you need to be worried about. If you think they aren't logging every single digital transaction that occurs, you're naive. I guarantee there's more than one database of guns and gun related items that is searchable. You're just not going to hear about it.

If you want a "ghost gun", pay cash for everything through personal, face to face transactions only and build something on an 80% lower. No emails, no payapl, no calling or texting. Leave your phone at home so you can't be tracked and take an Uber to a gun show. Buy things from people you've never done business with before.

Even then you're likely on surveillance cameras. But at least you're not being GPS logged on your phone or showing up on a plate reader scan while parked at the gun show.

You need a lot of tin foil to stay "off grid", if that's what you want.

Don't forget the countless marketing companies logging everything you read/look at on the internet.

 

[knfmn]

You're missing the fact that the ATF just goes back to the original manufacturer and they follow the trail of bread crumbs through FFLs. There's paper on pretty much everything, unless its 9000 years old or theres a break in the chain somewhere (like the original purchaser dying or something, etc. ).

-Mike

Except guns in free states where purchases are conducted as follows: "hey, nice gun...is it for sale?" "Yeah, I want $300 for it." "Deal...here's some cash. Have a good day!"

 

[drgrant]

Except guns in free states where purchases are conducted as follows: "hey, nice gun...is it for sale?" "Yeah, I want $300 for it." "Deal...here's some cash. Have a good day!"

I agree but that's probably like less than 10% of all gun transactions, and even then the seller might remember characteristics of the person they sold the gun to, etc. If there's an NTC operating report somewhere I'm sure there's a failure rate listed, that stuff is probably listed there. I would bet the fail rate is surprisingly low.

-Mike

 

[glockerblogger]

The illusions of privacy and the semantics. With the unstructured information and computing power that's now available to the agencies - they really don't need a structured database per se - but they will take it if you allow it

unless F2F gunshow and cash, should take the agencies a minute may be to track something.

 

[amm5061]

I forsee a whole lot of burnt down gun stores in the future....

Nah, just back room electrical fires. Too bad the bound book was stored right next to that microwave that melted down!

 

[knfmn]

I agree but that's probably like less than 10% of all gun transactions, and even then the seller might remember characteristics of the person they sold the gun to, etc. If there's an NTC operating report somewhere I'm sure there's a failure rate listed, that stuff is probably listed there. I would bet the fail rate is surprisingly low.

-Mike

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that. Most folks aren't like NES folks. They tend to buy one, maybe two guns and keep them. It isn't that often that you'll have folks out there who buy and sell a ton of guns. Even if the gun is through a private sale, the chances of something being used in a crime are very, very slim.

 

[Wrench75]

I personally wouldn't worry about the ATF. It's the intelligence agencies and DHS you need to be worried about. If you think they aren't logging every single digital transaction that occurs, you're naive. I guarantee there's more than one database of guns and gun related items that is searchable. You're just not going to hear about it.

In the case of FA10s your screwed. But as far as logging all digital... When you enter a 4473 through LEEP (Law Enforcement Enterprise Portal) You don't enter ANY gun info. Just the personal info from page 1, check off the "were questions x-y answered correctly" boxes and check off if it is a long gun or handgun (deeper level check for HG purchases). So all they get is John Smith was approved to buy a long gun, or HG, on X date. It doesn't even mean they actually bought the gun. Case in point, A customer of mine had his card declined a few weeks ago when he tried to cash out. He never came back for the gun and now I have another 4473 in the no-sale folder.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Give this a watch

[video=youtube_share;1N118jYj2cA]http://youtu.be/1N118jYj2cA[/video]

 

[xtry51]

In the case of FA10s your screwed. But as far as logging all digital... When you enter a 4473 through LEEP (Law Enforcement Enterprise Portal) You don't enter ANY gun info. Just the personal info from page 1, check off the "were questions x-y answered correctly" boxes and check off if it is a long gun or handgun (deeper level check for HG purchases). So all they get is John Smith was approved to buy a long gun, or HG, on X date. It doesn't even mean they actually bought the gun. Case in point, A customer of mine had his card declined a few weeks ago when he tried to cash out. He never came back for the gun and now I have another 4473 in the no-sale folder.

I wouldn't concern yourself with whether the 4473 ends up in a sale. Whether you buy or not, its getting data logged and you're now known as a potential gun owner. When governments think you might be able to oppose them, they record it for later if they can. I'm 100% sure they (DHS) are and have access to other intelligence networks that ignore all laws daily.

 

[glockerblogger]

Why would one assume that the agencies are not scraping records from all states? If they can scrape personal phones and many forums - how hard with state agencies?

i have given up on any assumption of privacy - with the exception of a small number of things.

in the past the constraints were laws, information not being online (somewhere) and limits to compute, data storage and networking. How many of these are constraints today? None I think.