No more Colt ARs

[sschevy]

What did Colt replace it's sales with when they stopped revolver manufacture?

Since then they've only half successfully sold ar and 1911s to civilians. Models which they didn't even have a hand in designing. You can argue that they are quality guns but damn......they missed the ball on designing and producing new stuff to help stay out of bankruptcy

The company has barely survived in the last 20 years only because of gov contracts and still filed bankruptcy even with those contracts.

Yet the have never “left the civilian market so many times” as you stated in your original post

Has colt had financial issues? Yup
From poor management? Possibly
From the unions? Absolutely
From inferior products? Not at all

But as this conversation started, they have yet to “pull out of the civilian market”

 

[whacko]

Yet the have never “left the civilian market so many times” as you stated in your original post

Has colt had financial issues? Yup
From poor management? Possibly
From the unions? Absolutely
From inferior products? Not at all

But as this conversation started, they have yet to “pull out of the civilian market”

You got me on semantics I'll admit it.

It's not necessarily they they pulled out completely......they just refuse to design and market anything new and concentrate most efforts on mil production. They survive gov contract to gov contract. I'll argue that their failures are absolutely due to poor management.

 

[M60]

Ending revolver “manufacturing” is far from “pulling out” of the civilian market

I agree, but it surely was a dumb move.

 

[sschevy]

I agree, but it surely was a dumb move.

You’re right it was a dumb move , that stemmed from the influx of cheap revolvers new to the market and the mainstream takeover of autoloaders

Every company has to make a decision at some point, stop producing something that cost too much in the current market , or join the race to the bottom to be competitive

At the end of the day , no matter what company it is , it’s all about profit

 

[general disorder]

Chris Bartocci (sp) had a great video on colt and the issues from management that they've had. A bit long but very informative. From what I've read elsewhere it appears as though they are fulfilling gov contracts first which would make sense. But in this upside down world we live in you just never know what's true and what isn't.

 

[sschevy]

You got me on semantics I'll admit it.

It's not necessarily they they pulled out completely......they just refuse to design and market anything new and concentrate most efforts on mil production. They survive gov contract to gov contract. I'll argue that their failures are absolutely due to poor management.

Believe it or not , their recent failure was due to union activity , it’s no secret if you dig into it

I’m a manufacturing junkie , I’ve been in it for 30+ years , I’ve privately toured Bushmaster, Springfield , Sig, Windham, Colt , charter arms , Lewis machine and tool , Ruger, and green mt

You’d be amazed at who is a “manufacturer” and who is simply a “assembly plant” that doesn’t make a damn part in house

Back in the 80’s when bushmaster was “quality parts co” they didn’t have as much as a drill press in the building when I was there , they contracted every single part and simply assembled guns

 

[sigfanboy13]

Believe it or not , their recent failure was due to union activity , it’s no secret if you dig into it

I’m a manufacturing junkie , I’ve been in it for 30+ years , I’ve privately toured Bushmaster, Springfield , Sig, Windham, Colt , charter arms , Lewis machine and tool , Ruger, and green mt

Well I'm jelous... I've heard LMT does most of thier stuff in house is that true?

Also as a side note about colt revolvers I'm disappointed they stopped. Now to get a real snake I have to raid some poor guy's estate sale to find one for a reasonable price.

 

[sschevy]

Well I'm jelous... I've heard LMT does most of thier stuff in house is that true?

Also as a side not about colt revolvers I'm disappointed they stopped, not to get a real snake I have to said some poor guy's estate sale to find one for a reasonable price.

They farm out some small parts like extractors, threaded hardware, pins, and gas rings but other than that everything is made on site

What impressed me about LMT over everyone else is that most manufacturers MP “batch test” test their bolts and barrels so they test one every hundred or so

LMT not only test every single one , but also MP tests on over 20 other points in their rifle , no other manufacturer can claim that level of quality control

Let’s hope with their new manufacturing facility and recent military contracts that nothing changes in terms of quality

 

[whacko]

You’re right it was a dumb move , that stemmed from the influx of cheap revolvers new to the market and the mainstream takeover of autoloaders

Every company has to make a decision at some point, stop producing something that cost too much in the current market , or join the race to the bottom to be competitive

At the end of the day , no matter what company it is , it’s all about profit

There's the problem right there in bold. That's why I say it is a management problem. Senior executive management main function is to forward think and plan for the future. Colt management decided to focus it's profits on contracts for the gov for rifles and never looked at market studies and predict the future demands. You have to stay in front of it. Designing a decent autoloader would not have been a "race to the bottom"......they could have designed and built a good quality defensive autoloader if they had perceived the future. They perceived the future to be smart gun technology......and got it WRONG. That's epic management failure.

Yes the unions had alot to do with current issues too. But top execs failed long before that.


other manufacturers did forecast well. My opinion is they got lazy and tried to survive on handouts...eh....government contracts instead.

 

[Dennis in MA]

I recall a few years ago, I think on "another gun board" that was NOT related to AR's, there was a contingent of guys that felt that there was Colt and nothing else. Like, if you bought ANY other AR, short of an LMT, you were destined to have 40% of your rounds jammed and to hit paper only at -3 yards. I was dumbfounded. Everything was junk. Pre-Cerebrus Bushies - junk. DPMS? Rock River? Any of teh 1990's-2000's brands - JUNK!

I'm a Colt geek and have too many of them. Some have never been fired and are from the 80s and have never been fired (and I'd like to keep it that way), and others are more recent and see some use. I know a lot of folks have had issues with consistency and reliability with various Colts, but I have been lucky enough to avoid it.

The point I was trying to make was that taking market share, by quality or affordability, can't be considered terrorism. That's just how business works.

Quick question: Have they ever been fired??? LOL

Make mine Colt. No brand name AR is as combat proven as Colt. I've seen them function under the worst possible conditions. Mud, Rain and fixed bayonet conditions are what I consider the worst conditions. I expect those that don't know better, who scoff at the thought of a fixed bayonet, to scoff at Colt as well, until you need a fixed bayonet in a monsoon and in the mud. Like I said, make mine Colt.

To be fair, how many other manufacturers were shipping M16's to Vietnam? Your sample set was 1 in a time when they were the only manufacturer. No disrespect to you or the historical Colt quality. But they aren't the end-all be-all of AR's any more than Hank Ford is the end-all be-all of horseless carriages.


If all of this is true, Colt AGAIN is stepping on it's on weenus. They are really good at it. They have a 30-40 year history of doing it wicked well. It's almost like they like to do so. Granted, if my weenus was long enough to step on myself, I'd probably do it just so I could say so. So maybe there's that. LOL

 

[sschevy]

There's the problem right there in bold. That's why I say it is a management problem. Senior executive management main function is to forward think and plan for the future. Colt management decided to focus it's profits on contracts for the gov for rifles and never looked at market studies and predict the future demands. You have to stay in front of it. Designing a decent autoloader would not have been a "race to the bottom"......they could have designed and built a good quality defensive autoloader if they had perceived the future. They perceived the future to be smart gun technology......and got it WRONG. That's epic management failure.

Yes the unions had alot to do with current issues too. But top execs failed long before that.


other manufacturers did forecast well. My opinion is they got lazy and tried to survive on handouts...eh....government contracts instead.

Management issues or not , when you sign a government contract part of the contract is that their fulfillment comes before anything else , Colt has been in that cycle of bound agreement since the 60’s , with more than just the US government

It’s not necessarily they choose to limit their product line , a company like cold can fulfill just so much , not to mention it’s nothing new with colt , the company business plan has been military contracts since their inception in the 1800’s

Considering they’ve been in business since 1846 without getting swallowed up is due credit in itself

 

[sigfanboy13]

They farm out some small parts like extractors, threaded hardware, pins, and gas rings but other than that everything is made on site

What impressed me about LMT over everyone else is that most manufacturers MP “batch test” test their bolts and barrels so they test one every hundred or so

LMT not only test every single one , but also MP tests on over 20 other points in their rifle , no other manufacturer can claim that level of quality control

Let’s hope with their new manufacturing facility and recent military contracts that nothing changes in terms of quality

I'm in an LMT FB group (let me know if you want an invite) that has a few LMT workers in it. There's sadly delays on product due to the move and all the panic buying (they can't keep anything in stock) and there have been minor cosmetic issues on a few things. However based on my short experience with them they customer service is fantastic and they will make it right.

 

[Coda]

as what? a bolt gun?

No as a semi-auto. And you will not be able to purchase one. But there will be others from free states with the resources to become proud owners.

 

[daekken]

Perhaps a silly question, but how segregated are the QC guys for their ARs vs. their 1911s?

I've long considered getting a Colt 1911 but the general consensus seems to be that their quality control and reliability on 1911s is now extremely poor to the point many people don't recommend them...yet in this thread, most people are raving about their quality (as in, Colt generally).

Just trying to make sense of it. I've considered Colt ARs in the past, but got a BCM instead.

 

[whacko]

Perhaps a silly question, but how segregated are the QC guys for their ARs vs. their 1911s?

I've long considered getting a Colt 1911 but the general consensus seems to be that their quality control and reliability on 1911s is now extremely poor to the point many people don't recommend them...yet in this thread, most people are raving about their quality (as in, Colt generally).

Just trying to make sense of it. I've considered Colt ARs in the past, but got a BCM instead.

A friend of mine got a lemon of a 1911 from Colt last year. The m45a1. Been back twice and it's still a jamomatic

 

[jason19711971]

They need to come up with something new. They also need to relocate to a non union state.

 

[M60]

I recall a few years ago, I think on "another gun board" that was NOT related to AR's, there was a contingent of guys that felt that there was Colt and nothing else. Like, if you bought ANY other AR, short of an LMT, you were destined to have 40% of your rounds jammed and to hit paper only at -3 yards. I was dumbfounded. Everything was junk. Pre-Cerebrus Bushies - junk. DPMS? Rock River? Any of teh 1990's-2000's brands - JUNK!




Quick question: Have they ever been fired??? LOL



To be fair, how many other manufacturers were shipping M16's to Vietnam? Your sample set was 1 in a time when they were the only manufacturer. No disrespect to you or the historical Colt quality. But they aren't the end-all be-all of AR's any more than Hank Ford is the end-all be-all of horseless carriages.


If all of this is true, Colt AGAIN is stepping on it's on weenus. They are really good at it. They have a 30-40 year history of doing it wicked well. It's almost like they like to do so. Granted, if my weenus was long enough to step on myself, I'd probably do it just so I could say so. So maybe there's that. LOL

I was not trying to advantage my position, on the fact that Colt was the only manufacturer at the time. The obvious point, was that the Colt M16 proved itself, many times over, under very severe battle and element conditions. It more than surpassed any reasonable expectations and was doing so before any other manufacturers existed and has been doing so ever since.

 

[whacko]

I was not trying to advantage my position, on the fact that Colt was the only manufacturer at the time. The obvious point, was that the Colt M16 proved itself, many times over, under very severe battle and element conditions. It more than surpassed any reasonable expectations and was doing so before any other manufacturers existed and has been doing so ever since.

So......did Colt improve the stoner armalite design to make it better or did Colt just manufacture the stoner design? Serious question. Because if colt didn't improve the design they get props for good manufacturing only right? Same with the 1911.

 

[sschevy]

So......did Colt improve the stoner armalite design to make it better or did Colt just manufacture the stoner design? Serious question. Because if colt didn't improve the design they get props for good manufacturing only right? Same with the 1911.

Colt did improve upon the original armalite design and has continued to do so to this very day , and as far as the 1911 , John browning designed it for colt

 

[Dennis in MA]

I was not trying to advantage my position, on the fact that Colt was the only manufacturer at the time. The obvious point, was that the Colt M16 proved itself, many times over, under very severe battle and element conditions. It more than surpassed any reasonable expectations and was doing so before any other manufacturers existed and has been doing so ever since.

Agreed. No argument. I'll still buy a Toyota or a Honda over a Ford, though. Age and history has little to do the decision making process. But given where you were and when (and before I was born'd, possibly), I get where you are coming from.

And to be fair - I'd rather Colt was run right and successful. It saddens me that they piss on retail customers. Taking a once-great company and working hard at screwing it up.

 

[FPrice]

My former FFL/local gun store owner (now deceased) worked for a time with both Colt and S&W. He was there when the USMC retired general took over the reins.

His opinion was that this man was incompetent as the senior leader in a firearms company and did NOT want to make guns for civilians.

 

[whacko]

Colt did improve upon the original armalite design and has continued to do so to this very day , and as far as the 1911 , John browning designed it for colt

I know jmb designed the 1911. It was a tongue in cheek comment.

 

[whacko]

My former FFL/local gun store owner (now deceased) worked for a time with both Colt and S&W. He was there when the USMC retired general took over the reins.

His opinion was that this man was incompetent as the senior leader in a firearms company and did NOT want to make guns for civilians.

You mean this guy? Article from the 1990s.
In this article it is presumed that Ron Stewart came out in favor of strict federal gun control in order to win favor with the government agencies he was targeting as customers for contracts. He was a true sellout.


Colt's Chief Stands Up For Federal Gun Control, By Henry Goldman

 

[sschevy]

You mean this guy? Article from the 1990s.
In this article it is presumed that Ron Stewart came out in favor of strict federal gun control in order to win favor with the government agencies he was targeting as customers for contracts. He was a true sellout.



Do you really think colt was the only one that took this stance before the 94 ban??

They were not the only sellout, and keep in mind before the 94 ban The was close to 0 interest in the civilian market for AR style rifles

I remember buying one in 1989 and getting ridiculed by my shooting friends for buying the “plastic piece of junk”


Colt's Chief Stands Up For Federal Gun Control, By Henry Goldman

 

[citoriguy]

Last longer as in shot out barrels or failed bolts

I’ve seen BCM barrels shot out in under 5k rounds more than once , DPMS rifles fail right out of the box , fail zero BCG’s snap in half, Sig rifles blow up, osprey piston systems refuse to work at all , Windham’s with barrel nuts so tight the upper receiver has cracked , bushmasters with FSB’s drilled canted to the side, the list can go on all day

Never had a Colt come in that failed , never sold one that didn’t work flawlessly (and I’ve sold hundreds) , have several myself that are 30+ years old that still shoot circles around my other rifles

They are just better quality , properly tested where they need to be, and better materials than most others on the market

Out of curiosity, how many of those that needed repair had some level of the owner trying to solve the problem, but really made it worse?

Quick question: Have they ever been fired??? LOL

Speaking of quality control - I need to proofread my posts more!

 

[whacko]

@sschevy
Never said they were the only ones. Ruger.....mag capacity
S and w.....Clinton hole

This one sure did cause a boycott among gun owners though.

 

[sschevy]

the examples I gave were beyond trying to fix them on their own, not to say I don't get my share of "baggie guns" coming into the shop

 

[whacko]

Never said they were the only ones. Ruger.....mag capacity
S and w.....Clinton hole

This one sure did cause a boycott among gun owners though.

 

[M60]

Agreed. No argument. I'll still buy a Toyota or a Honda over a Ford, though. Age and history has little to do the decision making process. But given where you were and when (and before I was born'd, possibly), I get where you are coming from.


And to be fair - I'd rather Colt was run right and successful. It saddens me that they piss on retail customers. Taking a once-great company and working hard at screwing it up.

For me it' more of a " if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of a thing". Colts have always worked well. I see know reasonable reason to switch. Then again, both of my vehicles are Ford products. I do agree that management, has taken a once great company and screwed it up.

 

[sschevy]

Never said they were the only ones. Ruger.....mag capacity
S and w.....Clinton hole

This one sure did cause a boycott among gun owners though.

guess if that's what the internet says it is what it is , but I personally don't remember anyone boycotting colt or ruger , I just remember mini 14's, mini 30's, colts, and bushmasters flying off the shelf