No Green Cards in my town: open shop in another town to get Green Card?

[Reptile]

My town has a blanket no Green Card policy. If I had a Green Card, commercial space, and a FFL 07, I could make a machine gun. (IF I GOT A SHOP IN A DIFFERENT TOWN)

Is that possible?

Sort of like getting a LTC without restrictions in the town where you have a business if you are not allowed no restrictions in your home town.

Of course I would have to research if the chief in the town with the commercial space would issue a Green Card.

Can anyone clarify?

Although I do not have the funds at the moment- I just want to know if it is possible.

 

[JMC Arms]

A green card MUST be issued from your town of residence. Nothing allows a PD to issue one where you have a business. We dealt with this.

if you ended up planning for an 07 FFL and paying SOT you could speak to your chief about the need for one prior to and the fact you can't get it through the business PD and see what he says.

edit. You need your SOT. $500 a year also.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Don't have any space available here in Littleton for another FFL, but choose your town very carefully if you plan to make the move. Some are a cake walk and some are a bitch. Jack.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Yup, don't go to Lynn or Groveland.

 

[dcmdon]

What recourse does someone denied a Green card have?

Can the CLEO deny just because he doesn't want any in his town? Or is it only based on suitability?

I know that after I moved to MA, when I applied in my town for a LTC, I came with a whole pile of documentation including, NRA pistol and rifle instructor credentials, a copy of my 07 FFL, proof of monitored alarm, invoice for a TL-30 safe, a letter from the CLEO in my old town attesting to what a great guy I am, and carry permits from CT, NH, and FL. He told me that I didn't need any of that, that all they give out are unrestricted LTC As.

Then I asked him about a Green card. He said "you know all that stuff you brought here for your LTC? You are going to need that for a green card"
My town was very very careful. They wanted to see the safe and alarm. I told them that I was not going to allow a walk through of my home. I would demonstrate the alarm from the attached garage and they could view the safe from outside the room that it was in. They agreed.

But i wonder, what my recourse would have been if they just denied me outright?

Is there anything in the law about criteria for denial or an appeal? or would you just have to go to court?

Don

 

[Len-2A Training]

Don, no idea but I just received an interesting Email from my chief that just about parallels what you posted, except he wants the PD to take pictures of everything too. NOT going to happen.

And I have no current intent to purchase anything, just shoot with a Federal agent buddy at our club, which requires a green card and a range safety test prior to OK'g you to shoot one on the ranges.

 

[dcmdon]

Interesting and disturbing considering you are or were Auxiliary. So he should know you. I suspect the motivation is a CYA mentality.

So if anything ever happens, they can say, LOOK, we did all this to vet him.

Don

 

[Len-2A Training]

His message was so convoluted that he's confusing a number of things. His Email speaks of sending forms to the Feds for approval, about a certain level of instructor for law enforcement people to shoot it, etc. It'll take me some time to straighten him out on what issue requires what and that all I'm asking for is the green card. I have no intention of buying anything in the near future (a house in NH when my Wife retires will be a much higher priority), but need the green card to shoot any smg on my club's property.

 

[dcmdon]

When I applied for my Green card, the officer said something like. "So there are only 2 cases where you can possess a MG. Either you are a collector or an LE instructor. "

I answered, well, I've given instruction to LE, but never on a MG. He confirmed I had an 03 FFL, which seems to be the key in MA, although I'm sure most MA people know that. Then said we would just mark the form that I was a collector. I don't remember how exactly this is represented on the form, but you get my point.

Either way, its clear that you get a green card at the CLEO's pleasure.

 

[Len-2A Training]

When I applied for my Green card, the officer said something like. "So there are only 2 cases where you can possess a MG. Either you are a collector or an LE instructor. "

I answered, well, I've given instruction to LE, but never on a MG. He confirmed I had an 03 FFL, which seems to be the key in MA, although I'm sure most MA people know that. Then said we would just mark the form that I was a collector. I don't remember how exactly this is represented on the form, but you get my point.

Either way, its clear that you get a green card at the CLEO's pleasure.

Late last night I sent a lengthy reply to my chief with cut and paste parts of law/regs for his reading pleasure. CMR 6.00 “Machine Gun License Bona Fide Collectors of Firearms” defines us but of course never uses the simple language of "possesses a C&R FFL". Instead it gives references to USC and CFRs. I quoted it and gave the simple language translation for him.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

As I've said before, the 03 FFL has nothing to do with machine guns. (Except maybe to make it easier to purchase a C&R machine gun). Since the 03 has the word "collector" in the title, some dimwit wanted it to be a requirement for the green card. Some PDs push for this, some could care less. As far as having an alarm system and a "inspected" safe, that's pure bullshit. A pump shotgun loaded with 00Buck is more effective than a 9mm subgun any day. Jack.

 

[Len-2A Training]

As I've said before, the 03 FFL has nothing to do with machine guns. (Except maybe to make it easier to purchase a C&R machine gun). Since the 03 has the word "collector" in the title, some dimwit wanted it to be a requirement for the green card. Some PDs push for this, some could care less. As far as having an alarm system and a "inspected" safe, that's pure bullshit. A pump shotgun loaded with 00Buck is more effective than a 9mm subgun any day. Jack.

Jack,

There were many chiefs saying "prove to me that you are a collector" after the law change in 1998. With no definition of "collector" it was like pissing up a rope for anyone that requested a MG License. So GCAB created the CMR to call out that possessing a C&R FFL "by definition" fulfills this requirement. It was done to help folks, not cause an impediment.

As for the inspection, taking pictures, alarm system, etc. that is all a anti-2A fabrication by some chiefs.

I agree with you that anything BUT a sub-gun is more effective wrt firepower. I recall reading that the true mission (war) of sub-guns was to keep the enemy pinned down so that sharpshooters could kill them off, not to mow down hundreds of enemy with a single burst!

 

[mordeeb]

Really don't understand how they can just have a "NO" policy I mean what if you moved into that town and already owned one!!!

 

[7.62x39]

When I got my green card 03 FFL was mandatory.

 

[dcmdon]

When I got my green card 03 FFL was mandatory.

Thats because the mass law says that as a condition to lawfully possess machine guns you need to be either a "bona fide" firearms collector or someone who gives training to LEOs.

MA police have made the jump that you need an 03 to show that you are a bona fide collector.

Don

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter140/Section131

(o) No person shall be issued a license to carry or possess a machine gun in the commonwealth, except that a licensing authority or the colonel of state police may issue a machine gun license to:

(i) a firearm instructor certified by the municipal police training committee for the sole purpose of firearm instruction to police personnel;

(ii) a bona fide collector of firearms upon application or upon application for renewal of such license.

 

[mordeeb]

Has anyone had issues renewing FFL? I heard that they send you a renewal form before it is up.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Don't have any space available here in Littleton for another FFL, but choose your town very carefully if you plan to make the move. Some are a cake walk and some are a bitch. Jack.

Why? Are FFLs allocated like liquor licenses? (I must have missed that memo)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What recourse does someone denied a Green card have?

You can appeal to district court, where the judge will very carefully weight the desire of one of those "gun people" to own a machine gun against the legitimate public safety concerns of a career professional, and then decide you will not get your machine gun license.

 

[mordeeb]

You can appeal to district court, where the judge will very carefully weight the desire of one of those "gun people" to own a machine gun against the legitimate public safety concerns of a career professional, and then decide you will not get your machine gun license.

Ugh please don't upset me!

 

[Sinitron]

FFL03 is the stepping stone in MA. Jack is right, It's not required technically, but it is. Nudge Nudge, wink wink. Just go get one and then the PD is a lot more receptive toward the applicant.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Why? Are FFLs allocated like liquor licenses? (I must have missed that memo)

Depends on the town. Zoning, PD attitude, FD attitude, Building dep't attitude, Planning board attitude, selectmen attitude, etc. Jack.

 

[Precision Point Firearms]

It would be cheaper to move

 

[Tommy Gun]

I live in Groveland and there is no way the Zoning Board would allow it. The COP is on board and even wrote me a letter of recommendation. The ZBA is being sued by the person I was going to rent from, not for this reason but I and he feel that the zoning board is hostile to new businesses.

I do have my Green Card in Groveland but my shop is in Littleton.

I grew up in Lynn and had a free space in a large welding shop, The COP wanted to meet me in person, we did and he said no. Two days later was Sandy Hook, he notified me that no FFL's would be allowed during his watch. He didn't even know that Lynn still has at least one 01 FFL.

 

[dcmdon]

I live in Groveland and there is no way the Zoning Board would allow it. The COP is on board and even wrote me a letter of recommendation. The ZBA is being sued by the person I was going to rent from, not for this reason but I and he feel that the zoning board is hostile to new businesses.

I do have my Green Card in Groveland but my shop is in Littleton.

I grew up in Lynn and had a free space in a large welding shop, The COP wanted to meet me in person, we did and he said no. Two days later was Sandy Hook, he notified me that no FFL's would be allowed during his watch. He didn't even know that Lynn still has at least one 01 FFL.

It sounds like you have more chance of getting a home based FFL because the law is clear and the zoning board would not need to be involved.
If you are in compliance with the customary home occupation language in your town's zoning bylaws, then there wouldn't be much they could do. At least not legally.

Don

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It sounds like you have more chance of getting a home based FFL because the law is clear and the zoning board would not need to be involved.
If you are in compliance with the customary home occupation language in your town's zoning bylaws, then there wouldn't be much they could do. At least not legally.

Don

Yes, but one cannot get a MA dealer's license from a home. The home based FFL would be confined to dealing with other FFLS, and also would not enjoy dealer immunity from the AW ban (that provision is based on having a MA dealer's license).