NICS requiring address for delayed and denied

[Bladerunner]

Am I reading something different here?

The NICS Section is working diligently on developing the tools to make this notification as seamless as possible. To make the necessary notifications, all FFLs will be required to provide the buyer’s complete address as recorded on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Form 4473. For FFLs who initiate a check by contacting the NICS Contracted Call Center (NCCC), the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or a denied status. The information will be required before the status is provided by the NCCC. For FFLs that initiate the check through the NICS E-Check, the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or denied response. The response will not be retrievable until the information is provided.

 

[Picton]

Am I reading something different here?

The NICS Section is working diligently on developing the tools to make this notification as seamless as possible. To make the necessary notifications, all FFLs will be required to provide the buyer’s complete address as recorded on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Form 4473. For FFLs who initiate a check by contacting the NICS Contracted Call Center (NCCC), the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or a denied status. The information will be required before the status is provided by the NCCC. For FFLs that initiate the check through the NICS E-Check, the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or denied response. The response will not be retrievable until the information is provided.

Yes.

I assumed the douchebags you were worried about, coming by and asking questions, were your local LEOs. My mistake.

 

[Goliathan]

…again, the addresses would go to LE in the case of denial, not delay.

I'm sure the FBI will totally not add all those delays into a database of undesireables.

 

[teamRR]

The good side, exposing false denials.

Most denials are incorrect determinations - typically people know they are PPs and do not go buy a gun at an FFL. The denials that occur are bad records, identity mix ups, or flat out mistakes.

When police forces start launching raids, that isn't something the Feds can hide behind or tie up in process. You get arrested, you get your day in court almost immediately with almost no room for uncertainty - ie charge wasn't a "felony", you aren't who they say you are, charge was vacated somehow, RO dropped, outdated info at feds, whatever - that shit ain't fuzzy.

The unfortunate part, other than say people or their guns getting hurt in the process, is there isn't an immediate way to make the Feds change their tune just because some state authority realized it's bullshit. But that paper trail likely helps with an appeal. And it helps expose problems.

I'd like to see the FBI themselves tasked with prosecuting every denial. I bet they'd be more careful about the BGC process if they were. And of course it'd sure be nice if you could take a false denial right to a local Fed court, similarly via the states attorney they would quickly be self correcting before a judge even had to think about it. If the Feds actually arrested people based on these false accusations you could.

 

[MAGA99]

…again, the addresses would go to LE in the case of denial, not delay.

Wouldn’t any knowledgeable current LEO be able to get an address with a name, DOB, state of birth and potentially a SS number?

 

[71montess]

Any other non descript shit stain laws in this bull shit law ?

 

[teamRR]

Wouldn’t any knowledgeable current LEO be able to get an address with a name, DOB, state of north and potentially a SS number?

Haha I'd think 99% of the time name and DOB would be about all they need. The state is generally here or next door - I wonder if by local they mean town or state? If it's town that really kinda narrows it down around here - a first name may be enough .

I thought they already sent a fax about this sort of thing, but maybe the fax had such limited info it wasn't worth the trouble over what may only be fraud.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

So how about the states where no NICS check is done if you have a current LTC? Nothing changes? Jack.

 

[Picton]

I'm sure the FBI will totally not add all those delays into a database of undesireables.

Oh, will there be abuses? Of course.

But how else is the government supposed to “catch” people who try to buy firearms while being PPs? We’re constantly bitching on here about enforcing existing laws before making new ones. This is an attempt to do that.

You can’t be in favor of tracking down PPs who attempt to buy while providing no way to track them down…

 

[drgrant]

Oh, will there be abuses? Of course.

But how else is the government supposed to “catch” people who try to buy firearms while being PPs? We’re constantly bitching on here about enforcing existing laws before making new ones. This is an attempt to do that.

You can’t be in favor of tracking down PPs who attempt to buy while providing no way to track them down…

Count me out of “enforcing existing laws” crowd wrt guns. . Constitutional issues aside its a huge waste of resources. Do you have any idea how many boring people are PPs? shitloads. and most of them were not violent felons. yeah we gunna teach that guy that got one dui in 1995 a lesson!!!!!!!! . great use of tax dollars

fwiw though, that assertion is pure bullshit, NICS could report a denial to an ATF field office to follow up on it and even tell them the dealer and the intrinsics of the person that failed. It’s not the job of local LE to enforce shit federal gun laws. (there might even be states that define pps differently) This is just a ham fisted ATF thing to promote harassment of people and also to get someone else to do their “job” by proxy.

 

[Picton]

Count me out of “enforcing existing laws” crowd wrt guns. . Constitutional issues aside its a huge waste of resources. Do you have any idea how many boring people are PPs? shitloads. and most of them were not violent felons. yeah we gunna teach that guy that got one dui in 1995 a lesson!!!!!!!! . great use of tax dollars

fwiw though, that assertion is pure bullshit, NICS could report a denial to an ATF field office to follow up on it and even tell them the dealer and the intrinsics of the person that failed. It’s not the job of local LE to enforce shit federal gun laws. (there might even be states that define pps differently) This is just a ham fisted ATF thing to promote harassment of people and also to get someone else to do their “job” by proxy.

Like I said, IANAL. Not an FFL either.

 

[drgrant]

Like I said, IANAL. Not an FFL either.

you don’t have to be either understand that this will do absolutely nothing in terms of actually catching bad people attempting to buy guns… it’s another form of obstructionism to scare people away from gun ownership. Even those obviously not prohibited by law.

 

[Dadstoys]

I'm sure the FBI will totally not add all those delays into a database of undesireables.

Noooo , that would be illegal and as we all know, the feds would never do that .

 

[E.Stoner]

I'm sure the FBI will totally not add all those delays into a database of undesireables.

NICS is run by the FBI, so they have the lists of undesirables already.

 

[teamRR]

there might even be states that define pps differently

Ie NH. The law in NH has 2 differences.

#1 it says, if it's not a felony in NH, then one is not prohibited. Ie a MA DUI, although you very well may fail a NICS check at the FFL, you are not a felon in possession or attempting to be as such by state law. Although lying on the form is probably a minor crime. So literally as far as I know, someone with a MA DUI is only running afoul of federal law if armed in NH. Hell a police department might even issue such a person a pistol permit.

#2 impertinent in this discussion but NH law is felon in possession of a dangerous weapon, ie no black powder, bow, slingshot, sword, who knows what else, for felons. Sure a felon can buy that stuff but it's a serious crime to posses it - likely a felon would do more time for having a bow in NH than having a gun in MA.

 

[42!]

you don’t have to be either understand that this will do absolutely nothing in terms of actually catching bad people attempting to buy guns… it’s another form of obstructionism to scare people away from gun ownership. Even those obviously not prohibited by law.

It's easy to call out the flaws in any system and to declare that what is can't work. It is far harder to come up with a viable solution that will take into account the many possible variations and be practical in the real world. This is why there is a saying "Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good" It acknowledges that perfect is unlikely so you need to focus on the good and work toward improving things. Even though you will never achieve perfection.

So @drgrant , you declared that this will do nothing. Now try presenting your real world applicable solution. My guess is you can't. You'll gloss over the details and create some fantasy that only works in some magical world. You denigrate what others try to do to improve the situation and yet offer nothing helpful. That's the problem, too many shouting "this sucks" and "that will never work" but offering nothing to help.

I recognize that our legal system is flawed, corrupt, and abusive. But I also recognize that we need a legal system. So the only real question is where we draw the lines. We can't just throw the whole idea out because it won't be perfect.

 

[Xringer]

They only forward if you get denied. The get the address on delayed since it might turn into a denied.

There is no "5 days". The requirement on delayed is that after 3 full business days the FFL can release the gun. Not in play here since it only causes notification on Denied

"To make the necessary notifications, all FFLs will be required to provide the buyer’s complete address as recorded on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Form 4473. For FFLs who initiate a check by contacting the NICS Contracted Call Center (NCCC), the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or a denied status. The information will be required before the status is provided by the NCCC. For FFLs that initiate the check through the NICS E-Check, the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or denied response."

Maybe I'm not reading that correctly. It sure seems like that a DELAY from NICS means that LEOs are going to be coming to your home..
Am I wrong about this?

 

[Xringer]

f*** this, I get delayed every time. It stopped once I got a UPIN, but only for a few transactions. My last two purchases were also delayed. WTF! I'm not a PP and have never been denied. So f*** the ATF and the FBI with this bullshit. Get your system in order and then we can talk about collecting addresses. Any doucebag coming to my residence asking questions will be interrogated on video until I determine whether they are a suitable person of good moral character and whether they have a definitive need to be such a cockbite.

I also get delayed every time (since 1998). A guy at the gun shop asked me if I had a government security clearance, I said yes, and he said that's why. A lot of people with a clearance have to come back next week to pick up their new guns.
There is absolutely no way I want the any LEOs who might suspect me of being a dangerous criminal, coming to my home!!
After 9/26/2022, no more new firearms for this old boomer..

 

[Caveman]

Thanks for the heads up. it won’t stop me as I’m sure with my NFA gear i’m already on a few lists. I have gotten a couple delays in recent months so I’m curious. Sure a delay could turn into a denied. but couldn’t they collect the data at that time? not as a “just in case”? What happens after the 3 days and item release on a delay? does the BC inquiry just delete itself and they move on? or could the denied still come in after that? if it does what’s to stop them from collecting the “necessary” info at that time? when you boil it down why on a delay? feels like the give them an inch and they take a mile. Next step will be just give the address when submitting the NICS “just in case” and behind the scenes the data will be collated and transmitted to LE as a “heads up” on a local purchase.

 

[drgrant]

It's easy to call out the flaws in any system and to declare that what is can't work. It is far harder to come up with a viable solution that will take into account the many possible variations and be practical in the real world. This is why there is a saying "Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good" It acknowledges that perfect is unlikely so you need to focus on the good and work toward improving things. Even though you will never achieve perfection.

I can come up with a minimally infringing system in an hour, but its a pointless exercise. "They" would never allow it to be legislated because it would give gun owners too many "perceived" advantages. The discussion must start with "the system must fail open to the gun buyers favor by default" if it doesn't and they won't accept that (and they wont) then its not much better than the garbage we have now.

Delay should be changed to "provisional proceed' which means its a default proceed but the gov gets a chance to go arrest someone if it turns into a legit denial, somehow... (eg, the same thing that happens with a 3 day default proceed, although no more f***ing 3 day wait shit, considering that most 3 day delays end up going to a proceed anyways, so just f***ing do it, and then deal with the bad guys later, instead of pretending 3 days will do anything. )

Instant Denials should only be based on incontrovertible matches where X out of Y things match and probability says its difficult for it to NOT be a coincidence. All else is provisionally
proceeded if its questionable.

.gov needs to absorb more burden than the citizens do. False Denials that are overturned should also be entitled to recieve a minimum 10,000 payout from the gov. 30,000 if they get wrongfully arrested as a result of it. That'd clean up their stupid f***ing database real quick. Or maybe hire some NICS examiners that arent braindead morons. (this is a gigantic factor in the whole equation, BTW... it comes readily apparent when you call the NH NICS POC and a few of those people will do the 2 minutes of legwork to proceed some guy that the feds would have delayed on the other side. )

Then when it goes full proceed, all records are destroyed. All of it. An FFL should only have to hang on to a full proceed 4473 for 30 days. Then it can be legally destroyed. At the end of the calendar year the FFL has an option to start a new bound book, in which case the only carryover is inventory and guns otherwise not logged out. All full proceed guns can be completely purged from the BB.

There's way more but im not going to bother getting into it.

I'm also putting aside the fact that a BG check is unconstitutional to begin with. Or at least it should be. I'm basing my framework on an idea where you could have a minimally infringing
system that will make useless NPC retards feel good and not burden the gun owner or FFL too much. (the idea of making FFLs accept the burden of dealing with delays is also retarded, gov isnt paying them for that shit. )

So @drgrant , you declared that this will do nothing. Now try presenting your real world applicable solution. My guess is you can't. You'll gloss over the details and create some fantasy that only works in some magical world.

Solution for what? rubbing the genitals of a system that shouldnt exist to begin with?

Ratting on a gun buyer to the local cops who, outside of extreme anti gun jurisdictions, are just going to circular file that shit, does nothing. (BTW, if the person is really bad, and they get denied, NICS will call the police on them on the spot anyways, so not sure what this stupid system is trying to accomplish, I think they want to encourage cops to harass some guy who sold like 3 bags of pot in 1983 and naievely thought that because now pot was legal, he might be able to buy a gun. It's pretty obvious the intent of this kind of thing is just to frighten gun buyers away. As it is we see it in MA with the whole licensing system and the perjury traps set up on application , etc. The whole idea is to intimidate and scare people
away.

You denigrate what others try to do to improve the situation and yet offer nothing helpful. That's the problem, too many shouting "this sucks" and "that will never work" but offering nothing to help.

You posit this as though somehow it is a good thing. It is not. This has me a bit confused. This is not an improvement, of any kind. Unless you believe in the NRA/jingocon fairytale of "enforcing da lawrz on the books" but I would like to think you are way smarter than that. Also state and local PDs typically only have very little to do with enforcing shit federal gun
laws. In many, many cases, there is no analog in state or local law for "lying ona background check" etc, or other stupidity.

I recognize that our legal system is flawed, corrupt, and abusive. But I also recognize that we need a legal system. So the only real question is where we draw the lines. We can't just throw the whole idea out because it won't be perfect.

This isn't about a legal system, its about a background check system that is fundamentally unconstitutional and inherently violates basic tenets of US common law. (starting with the FACT that it is constructed as "guilty until proven innocent" and inherently suppresses rights without due process! Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. On any given day NICS is at best, a tolerated/necessary-to-do-business-kind-of-evil by dealers that largely just interferes with selling guns to people. People who, btw, overwhelmingly pass the background
check. Gun buyers likely have a proceed rate far higher than the average local public high school does at producing graduates.

If you're going to reference the legal system, you might want to start with the fact that the entire BG check system is incompatible with basic tenets of our legal system.... it's kinda hard to get around that. At some point people need to stop being beatrice and look at the reality... you chide me for "producing a fantasy world" well the entire f***ing NICS system is birthed into the legal equivalent of disneyland. Just because "it was always done that way" doesn't undo the wrongness of the situation. That's like saying "Rape is OK if Cosby does it, because we know hes a rapist and he been doing that for years".

ETA: BTW "Perfect is the enemy of the good" only works if the thing we're talking about is "good" in some way. It isn't. At all.

 

[CrackPot]

"To make the necessary notifications, all FFLs will be required to provide the buyer’s complete address as recorded on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Form 4473. For FFLs who initiate a check by contacting the NICS Contracted Call Center (NCCC), the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or a denied status. The information will be required before the status is provided by the NCCC. For FFLs that initiate the check through the NICS E-Check, the address will be required if the customer receives a delay or denied response."

Maybe I'm not reading that correctly. It sure seems like that a DELAY from NICS means that LEOs are going to be coming to your home..
Am I wrong about this?

You are linking facts. They require the address for delayed and denied. The reason they need it for delayed is because they could turn into denied. The law requires notification of local law enforcement within 24 hours of a denied. They can’t insure that they can reach the ffl for the address after the delay turns into a denied. So they collect the address on delay.

Local law enforcement is only notified on denied.

 

[RumRunner]

I also get delayed every time (since 1998). A guy at the gun shop asked me if I had a government security clearance, I said yes, and he said that's why. A lot of people with a clearance have to come back next week to pick up their new guns.
There is absolutely no way I want the any LEOs who might suspect me of being a dangerous criminal, coming to my home!!
After 9/26/2022, no more new firearms for this old boomer..

Nothing to do with a security clearance. I have had one for many years, and have never had a delay (of course now that I said it )

 

[teamRR]

Nothing to do with a security clearance. I have had one for many years, and have never had a delay (of course now that I said it )

There is something about a security clearance that causes delays, is a well known thing that comes up a lot.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

What does the FBI expect local law enforcement to do with this information? Is a prohibited person being denied on a background check a state crime? or is it only a Federal crime? I assume the Federal crime would be lying on a 4473?

 

[teamRR]

Although I agree with the concept that an armed robber, someone who intentionally harmed another in a manner that resulted in hospitalization or worse (due to physical injury), similar criminal types, ought to loose rights to bear arms for some period of time (maybe 10 years after sentenced served may make sense more than life, but whatever - even if life makes sense).

Today's system is phucked. A MA DUI, soliciting a prostitute, tax evasion probably, a whole lot of crimes that are clearly not violent acts which indiscriminately net lots of people who clearly are not violent nor dangerous nor who anyone considers real criminals - are prohibiting for life. Doesn't matter if someone is 18 or 80, no .22LR or even .40S&W for life after that, you are a dangerous felon...

And then under the system, if they make a mistake (and most denials are) your only recourse to exercise this right (even if it's just a .40 you want to buy) is to fill out paperwork, send fingerprints, and wait for the government to get around to looking at what you sent.

I'd say really the system is a joke right from the start. They let BS state max sentence laws manipulate the system, take rights away from people who are no more likely to be violent than the politicians who created the laws, and then they provide no real due process and claim a BS government process suits those needs.

Really it ought to be violent criminals who lose that right, in the pure sense of violent, and with some expiration of that loss of rights. And if we really gotta fill out a damn form and let the FBI say who is safe, when they say someone isn't then it should go before a judge for appeal and not the same agency who is potentially making the error, and not on whatever time frame is convenient for that agency.

 

[teamRR]

What does the FBI expect local law enforcement to do with this information? Is a prohibited person being denied on a background check a state crime? or is it only a Federal crime? I assume the Federal crime would be lying on a 4473?

It's probably a state crime to lie (minor crime, not worth police time except if say there's some aggravating background they likely never uncover because they never look anyway).

In some states it's probably a crime to attempt to buy a gun as a PP. Sometimes though as mentioned, a state may not see a person as a PP even if the Feds do. But potentially still fraud, again minor.

 

[pastera]

I also get delayed every time (since 1998). A guy at the gun shop asked me if I had a government security clearance, I said yes, and he said that's why. A lot of people with a clearance have to come back next week to pick up their new guns.
There is absolutely no way I want the any LEOs who might suspect me of being a dangerous criminal, coming to my home!!
After 9/26/2022, no more new firearms for this old boomer..

I have a current clearance and work with multiple gun people, also cleared, who have zero issues with BCG delays.
I would say that tidbit you got was pulled out of the gunshop's rear orifice.

 

[Xringer]

You are linking facts. They require the address for delayed and denied. The reason they need it for delayed is because they could turn into denied. The law requires notification of local law enforcement within 24 hours of a denied. They can’t insure that they can reach the ffl for the address after the delay turns into a denied. So they collect the address on delay.

Local law enforcement is only notified on denied.

Yes, I am using Facts. Many people don't mind them, even when they are linked.
"The reason they need it for delayed is because they could turn into denied."??
Really? I heard that 90% of the denied were mistakes. How in the hell could a delayed turn into a denied? Your record is clean or it isn't.

This is all beside the point. The way this rule is written, it assumes likely guilt when there is no probable cause. Sending LEOs to people's homes to snoop on them, when there is no reason, just doesn't sound very legal.
I don't want some idiot wondering around in my backyard to shoot me, because they see me (legally) shooting an air-rifle.

What if I have a book from the city library, and it's almost due to be returned.
Should the 'book' police drop by to make sure I don't keep it past the due date next week??

I have a current clearance and work with multiple gun people, also cleared, who have zero issues with BCG delays.
I would say that tidbit you got was pulled out of the gunshop's rear orifice.

Perhaps there's a difference in the types of clearances that are issued.?. Maybe there's a difference in the programs you were cleared for.?.
Maybe some programs are more important than others? Did you have to renew every five years, get a poly and fill out a new SF-86?
Were you ever cleared for TS in the early 1960s (while in the military)?

 

[Xringer]

There is something about a security clearance that causes delays, is a well known thing that comes up a lot.

That's correct. But there are a lot of interweb Experts who think these delays never happen, because of clearances.
Or maybe I'm wrong and it's just random chance that ALL my gun purchases (since 1998) got delayed because of... a random, no reason?

 

[Shevchenko]

So dumb, I've never been delayed or anything but the last thing I want is a potential investigation based on a glitch that will give Wilmington PD cause to dig into me after my "situation"