• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

NH Legislature over rides death penalty veto

I'd argue that if you think for one second that there are NO instances where death penalty is THE punishement that fits the crime

This is why you shouldn’t make assumptions and when you do, not use them as a basis for your argument with someone that doesn’t actually believe your assumption. Which you’d have realized if you’d waited a minute before this emotionally charged post.


Another straw man because no one is making that argument.....so pipe down and go back to your cop bashing thread

“I don’t agree with someone so they are a big meanie and need to shut up and go away!”

Solid argument.
 
jpk is correct as far as NH goes. We don't need to look at the mistakes of other states, this is a NH bill and it's about NH. Just as I don't like it when people cite CA or MA as a reason to do something in NH, I see no reason to base what NH does on other states that are messing it up, especially when we have a clear history of how it's worked in NH to look at.

We’ve clearly been discussing the general usage of a death penalty as a whole, and not just it’s use in NH. But if that is your position, that we can only talk about it’s use in NH, then you’d have no reason to take issue with it’s repeal. It’s not been used in 80 years and the sole person it has been levied on since, his sentence is not affected.
 
Is the death penalty sometimes warranted, and absolutely the correct punishment for the crime? IMO, yes. Most definitely. But there is no way to implement one and be 100% correct. And it does not matter what stipulations, it doesn’t matter how specific, it doesn’t matter which additional requirements of proof. It wouldn’t be infallible. And innocent people will be unjustly executed.

What a great argument for abolishing all firearms, if it will save one life.

The reality is we live in an imperfect world. We need to do the best we can, and this includes setting limits. But we need to set those limits carefully and wherever possible base them on real-world evidence. And the evidence is that in NH having the death penalty as an option is reasonable and is being reasonably applied.

Yes, there are other places that are getting it wrong, and these need to be fixed. And I'd gladly add my vote the bills in those states if I'm living there.

We’ve clearly been discussing the general usage of a death penalty as a whole, and not just it’s use in NH. But if that is your position, that we can only talk about it’s use in NH, then you’d have no reason to take issue with it’s repeal. It’s not been used in 80 years and the sole person it has been levied on since, his sentence is not affected.

No, it means we've been doing it right and we should keep it as an option. Because we can't predict the future, but the past shows it's being done right. If it's working why change it?
 
As a NH resident, and a Libertarian leaning Conservative, I did not have a problem with this vote.

With only 1 person on death row and no executions in 80 years, there is no deterrent factor for anyone.

Plus It bothers me as a person who believes life is sacred to take a life in this way. I know that sounds funny from someone who has been trained to shoot for the largest area of exposed flesh and keep shooting until the threat is stopped, but I can not kill anyone or anything that is not trying to hurt/kill me or those around me.

Life without the possibility of parole works for me, and life in a NH prison is no cup of tea. A friend of the Mrs. did 12 years for killing someone while DWI and he did not paint a pretty picture of where he was.

That is also why I have no problem with Tsarnaev sitting in Supermax on what is basically a life sentence in solitary confinement.
 
I think giving the government less ways to kill us is probably a good thing. It is never used in NH so it really changes nothing.
We use it in Alabama. It was constructed out of oak in the 1920s and painted with yellow highway lane paint. Her name is Yellow Mama and she fried a good number of convicted murderers with her 2,000 volt current. An electrocuted criminal
is guaranteed not to reoffend and not be a lifetime financial burden to taxpayers.
 
And there definitely shouldn’t be a death penalty exclusively for murdering only a specific class of people. The notion someone’s life, based on their profession, it worth more than others, is asinine and perverse.

I'm being lazy here, but was this in fact the case for the death penalty in NH? You only got it for killing agents of the state? If so, I have no problem with this overturn.
 
I think we need to end this idea of "every life is precious" malarky.

Three strikes and you're out. Three felonies and you're done; plea bargains, parole, time served whatever. Under the current policy of execution for serious crimes, it is possible for an innocent man to be convicted and executed for a crime he didn't commit. Under my policy, it's far less likely that someone was railroaded for three felonies, and it's almost a sure thing that the guy is a dirtbag and his loss won't be mourned. (Three seperate times - not 3 rounds of .22lr in a school)

Cruel and "unusual" doesn't apply if you do it enough.
 
With only 1 person on death row and no executions in 80 years, there is no deterrent factor for anyone.
And how do you determine this? You would need to be able to read the minds of everyone. How do you know there wasn't at least one person who thought "if I kill this guy I'd face the death penalty" and then didn't?

It's about keeping options open. Statistically speaking a person will never need to draw their gun to defend their life (the vast majority never do), should we take that option away as well?

Plus It bothers me as a person who believes life is sacred to take a life in this way. I know that sounds funny from someone who has been trained to shoot for the largest area of exposed flesh and keep shooting until the threat is stopped, but I can not kill anyone or anything that is not trying to hurt/kill me or those around me.
1. No one is asking you to pull the trigger.
2. You lack of concern for others in the community is disturbingly selfish.

Life without the possibility of parole works for me, and life in a NH prison is no cup of tea. A friend of the Mrs. did 12 years for killing someone while DWI and he did not paint a pretty picture of where he was.
To me, prison should provide reform and a deterrent to reoffend. Without this there is no point in keeping someone locked up.

That is also why I have no problem with Tsarnaev sitting in Supermax on what is basically a life sentence in solitary confinement.
Life in solitary is a pretty cruel punishment, I'd go so far as to say it equates to torture. And obviously there is no reform then release. So yes, he should have received a death sentence. I'm not talking about taking him out behind the courthouse and shooting him. I'm talking about proper hearings with juries and an automatic appeal. We should do what we can to be as sure as possible, but the option needs to be there.
 
And how do you determine this? You would need to be able to read the minds of everyone. How do you know there wasn't at least one person who thought "if I kill this guy I'd face the death penalty" and then didn't?

"but if it saves just one life it is worth it" .... That argument does not work for gun control either.

Personally if I had to face any significant jail time at my age, I'd be looking for a way to punch out, I'm not going to do the time.

There was this kid I went to Jr high with, He would bully me, one day I had enough and in the gym locker room I put a knife to his neck.. he got the message. We went to Voke school ... different shops... he kept his distance.

He spent most of his Senior year in Billerica, he got a standing O from his friends when he got out early enough to make graduation

After that he was arrested a few times for B&E and other petty crimes....

Then he was caught up in drugs in a bad way. He ended up killing the sister of one of my drinking buddies, My buddy was never the same, his Mom died of a broken heart. The girl that was killed had a toddler that was in the apartment at the time of the murder. My buddy eventually drank himself to death, the funeral was a few months ago. The son went to live with Dad in Florida.

What gave me some satisfaction was that coward who killed a young mother, ended up in jail. I promised my buddy back in 1998 that I would always oppose any bid for parole.

I still have all the newspaper accounts I printed from microfiche... but I'll never need them

One day I was perusing the internet and found one of those prison reform type newsletters, and it had an article about what happened to Francis Gallagher... it seems he had a real tough time in jail, and I am glad he did. The article went on to describe all the problems he had, especially with the prison staff. After one event he went back to his cell and hung himself.

I get great satisfaction that he lived in a Hell of his own making for over 27 years, I hope he was someone's "bitch", I hope he had the sh*t kicked out of him. I wish he had lived longer and experienced more pain. If he had a swift execution I would have been deprived of that satisfaction.

GALLAGHER, COMMONWEALTH vs., 408 Mass. 510


Francis Gallagher, Franie to his
friends and acquaintances, tragically
committed suicide at MCI-Norfolk
within an hour of being lugged on
June 24, 2014 to “the RB” (SMU –
Security Management Unit).
By all accounts it was a beautiful
summer day to be enjoyed. Franie
had the morning off because the area
of the shop where he was employed
was closed. Just several days into
occupying a single cell (the golden
standard – especially for 1st degree
lifers), he signed out to the Gym from
his housing unit (6-3). The Gym, as
usual, was closed (why should it be
open?). The circumstances of his
“situation” are still somewhat cloudy
but some facts are that he was found
to be “out of place” (determined by
who is yet to be discovered). We do
know that he went to see a case
worker in 4-2, and at some time
before this had gone to the property
window to have stickers placed on
two appliances. An exchange of
comments was made at the property
window not the least bit favorable to
Franie regarding the property in
question. It is presumed he at some
time left the window to speak with
his CPO and was apprehended in unit
4-2, determined to be “out of place”
(not where he was signed out to) –
and there he was cuffed and lugged to
the aforementioned establishment
(“The Hole”).
Unbeknownst to many, Franie
was under the care of mental health
and is purported to have asked to see
his mental health professional and
furthermore stated that he “was
going to kill himself if they lugged
him” (for what purpose we can only
suppose what he judged to be his
continued unfair treatment and
further intolerable punishment for
just trying to live). Bear in mind that
prison, in and of itself, is the
punishment meted out by society
(the Courts). No one comes here to be
punished or abused. There are some
however who work here who have
other aims and objectives (as Devil’s
disciples). They prey on the weak all
too often.
It’s a real shame. Twenty-seven
(27) years into his sentence, mildmannered,
unassuming, with a wry
sense of humor – he didn’t bother
anyone and was trying as he may to
make his way in the world “we live
in.” I remember him living in (or
tolerating) a five man ghetto in 6-3
for the longest time. Prior to that,
according to others, he didn’t have an
“easy bid”. So, he must have “had it”
with the dilettantes and d…. b….s who
are employed at MCI-Norfolk. A lug
and a ticket usually mean losing
everything: the single cell, his job (a
means of support), much of his
personal property along with
creature comforts whatever he
judged them to be. Don’t get me
wrong – there are some good and fine
men and women at work for the DOC
and at MCI-Norfolk.
The problem is that the worst of
the worst are put into positions of
authority and/or administration. And
micro-management is the norm
wherein contemporary publications
that could otherwise be purchased at
any news stand by a 10 or 11 year old
are contrabanded at an alarming rate
because depictions of scantily clad
females are now considered sexually
explicit (oh, my!). And for more than
50+ years where sun bathing has
been popular in the “real world” and
enjoyed also at MCI-Norfolk – one can
no longer lie on the ground or in any
horizontal position out-of-doors
within the confines of this venerable
institution because either someone
has too much time on their hands (to
write a new policy/regulation) or the
recent visit via helicopter by another
d/b, the governor felt unmanned by
his eyeballs when viewing the
sunbathers from above. Who knows –
but dumb and dumber.
Franie’s unspeakable suicide and
death was the result of an
unreasonable intrusion into the
quality of what is left of a personal
life… by the uncaring cascade of
bravado, abuse of power and
stupidity of persons supposedly
charged with care & custody, who
believe “they” are untouchable and to
be held harmless.
After all, he was only a lifer…
serving “THE OTHER DEATH PENALTY"
 
Last edited:
The "most heinous" crimes evoke the most emotion, and are frequently exactly the kinds of cases where the wrong person is nabbed and no one cares -- as long as someone pays.

I wish I could like this more than once. As long as agents of the government are responsible for investigating, charging, and providing evidence against a citizen, then there will always be the possibility of error, corruption or outright framing. I am not comfortable allowing a citizen to be executed as long as the state controls the game.
 
i have very mixed emotions on all this.
Some crooks def deserve a firing squad.

But then you hear of isolated cases where law enforcement or the prosecutor with held important evidence, OR that DNA testing proved the guy was innocent. Once you off the perp, there is no take-backs on that one

also we all know the news media lies on almost everything. Who is to say they do not gang together to rail road a conservative who was innocent and just defending himself?
 
Last edited:
I wish I could like this more than once. As long as agents of the government are responsible for investigating, charging, and providing evidence against a citizen, then there will always be the possibility of error, corruption or outright framing. I am not comfortable allowing a citizen to be executed as long as the state controls the game.
Please elaborate, who should "investigating, charging, and providing evidence against a citizen", you may be on to something but I need to know what you are suggesting as a better way.
 
Please elaborate, who should "investigating, charging, and providing evidence against a citizen", you may be on to something but I need to know what you are suggesting as a better way.

I see what you're doing and that's cool. I'll slow it down for you so you can understand my opinion...

Heres what I'm saying: unless there is an infallible or un-influenced body that can insure that people put to death are guilty, then I prefer to err on the side of imprisonment. Government has proven they cannot get this right, so I dont believe they should have the power to execute its citizenry.
 
Last edited:
But then you hear of isolated cases where law enforcement or the prosecutor with held important evidence, OR that DNA testing proved the guy was innocent. Once you off the perp, there is no take-backs on that one
Since 1979, 21 death row inmates have been exonerated based on DNA evidence. That's not including the 4 known cases where they dude was executed before (or despite) the DNA test results.

OTOH, most of these were bad hombres, and they probably deserved execution for something, so no harm, no fowl, right?

You're argument is that government doesnt own your life/its bad for gov to end the lives of murderers.......and then proceed to argue that its perfectly acceptable for gov to "own your life" by imprisoning the person for their ENTIRE LIFE......
At least with life in prison, when the state realizes they got it wrong (as in the dozens of inmates who sat on death row for a decade or more before their conviction was overturned), the state can at least make a token gesture of amends. Once they've executed the wrong guy, what should they do, hold a seance? Promise to try harder to get the right guy next time?
 
Heres what I'm saying: unless there is an infallible or un-influenced body that can insure that people put to death are guilty, then I prefer to err on the side of imprisonment. Government has proven they cannot get this right, so I dont believe they should have the power to execute its citizenry.

I see what you're up to, you went for the whole enchilada but when that was shown to just be impossible you narrowed it down. But the reality is that being human means we are both fallible and influenced. My position was and is that NH has been very cautious in its use of the death penalty and as a result it's been used infrequently and correctly. So there is no need to take it off the table. And I would appreciate not grouping the NH State Government in with the State governments of CA, MA, NY, IL, etc.

I've also been very clear that in states where there is a problem they should address that problem. I refuse to paint everyone, and every state, with the same brush.

Since 1979, 21 death row inmates have been exonerated based on DNA evidence. That's not including the 4 known cases where they dude was executed before (or despite) the DNA test results.

OTOH, most of these were bad hombres, and they probably deserved execution for something, so no harm, no fowl, right?
I assume you're being sarcastic. Either way, it is absolutely wrong to execute someone for a crime they did not commit, regardless of how big a POS they may be. In a death penalty case the jury is aware of what's on the table, and this may influence their vote.

And the states where these terrible miscarriages of justice occured, they need to correct the problem. If that means suspending the use of the death penalty until/unless they do so, so be it. If history shows it as working, there is no need to change it.


At least with life in prison, when the state realizes they got it wrong (as in the dozens of inmates who sat on death row for a decade or more before their conviction was overturned), the state can at least make a token gesture of amends. Once they've executed the wrong guy, what should they do, hold a seance? Promise to try harder to get the right guy next time?

Unfortunately there is no fix for this kind of a mistake, nothing will make it better for those left behind.
Regardless, the cause should be found and fixed. And if anyone did anything criminal that caused this, they should face the death penalty. Maybe this will help stop the next guy from falsifying evidence that results in an unwarranted death penalty.
 
You're making my point.

No, I'm pointing out that we don't live in a fantasy world of perfection and we never will. Your standard that perfection is required is unobtainable in all things. Thus it is ridiculous, even delusional, to expect it in anything. All we can do is work to make things better, and do the best we can. And when something has shown itself to be working well, keep it.

If you can provide an example of the NH Death Penalty being used improperly, on someone who was ultimately found to be innocent. Then I would consider some kind of change appropriate. But since no one has brought up any examples, I have to take that to mean there are none and the system is working as designed. So no change is necessary.
 
No, I'm pointing out that we don't live in a fantasy world of perfection and we never will. Your standard that perfection is required is unobtainable in all things. Thus it is ridiculous, even delusional, to expect it in anything.

Definitely not what I'm saying. But, in the example of the state executing one of its citizens, then yes I do think perfection for guilt should be the standard. Since it is well documented that the government cannot be perfect, then I prefer incarceration rather than risk an unjust death sentence.

I do not live in a fantasy world where I expect perfection in all things. But in the case of a man's life, then I think its prudent to side on caution. And I agree with the legislators in my state that just over rode this.
 
I'm being lazy here, but was this in fact the case for the death penalty in NH? You only got it for killing agents of the state? If so, I have no problem with this overturn.
It was at the time Briggs was killed. After Mont Vernon, they added one more case: murder during a home invasion.

First Degree Murder in NH already carries a mandatory sentence of life without parole. Capital murderers faced either LWOP or death; now it will be LWOP.
 
At least three, all women. The first two in 1739, and Ruth Blay in 1768.
The State of NH was founded in January 1776, so technically not in the State of NH, and certainly outside the current laws.
So no issues within the current legal system.
 
Back
Top Bottom