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Newb 1911 Question - Rail vs. No Rail
- Thread starter 6Gears1Speed
- Start date
OK I see now. After doing some reading it looks like there are some guys who would rather cut off there units than to own a 1911 that isn't the original design. This is the part where being new to something has its advantages. I don't care if something is original or not so I guess I'll just go with whether I like the appearance of the external extractor or not. I'm having a hard time understanding why people are saying the internal extractor is easier to maintain though. If the extractor is on the outside and easily accessible it appears to be easier to maintain. What am I missing?
You may be missing that any deviations from JMB's original 1911 design sets some people off. The external extractor is perfectly functional but some get sideways because a "real" 1911 uses the internal. If resell value is a major concern I would worry less about the design; my goal would be to find the best value I could, which would probably mean looking used. IMO you are going to have a tough time getting your money back a year from now if you buy a $800+ gun new. You see used guns listed at new prices die here in the classifieds...
I have railed/non railed and internal/external extractors on my 1911s and I LOVE THEM ALL! Buy which ever you like! I have no problems with an external extractor either, it works completely fine. As stated if all you want is resale value find a Colt and don't modify it.
I have 8. Love them. I have one 5" govt stainless with a rail. That is the gun I keep under my pillow because in the event of a breakin you need a light! Period. Tactical light & tritium night sights. Laser doesn't hurt either.
That's what I mean when I say sometimes being a newb has it's advantages. To me it just looks like a nice gun with a rail. The more I look at it the more I like it. I like the tall squared off slide vs. the original round slim slide.
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I get sideways over a non-improvement that locks you into a single vendor's part, especially with reports that S&W has on at least some occasions refused to sell spares since they require factory fitting.
And there are the expected replies...so don't buy a Sig or S&W if you are doing a custom build. I'm not a mechanical engineer so can't speak to the design details of the EE, but the Sigs and S&Ws I have owned extracted rounds as well as my Colts.
fencer
NES Member
I own a R1 and a Sig Target Stainless and the Remington is more accurate and has been just as reliable. I think you are giving Sig and S&W much more credit than they deserve. They both have had their fair share if QC issues. S&W has better customer service and probably is more accurate than a Sig. Both have the ugly external extractor.
The Remington is a machined slide, not cast, and comes with a match grade barrel.
I will probably sell them both and look for an STI. Both my Sig and Remington are decent guns. The STI's are great guns. The kind you never sell. You won't see one in the classifieds
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I'm not excited about dealing with an internal extractor that requires that you bend it one way or another until it works. After all these years that's the best they can do? Are they not solving that just for the purpose of keeping the design of the internal extractor original or do they not believe that's an issue? I personally think it's a design flaw and would rather they solve it than to keep it as is just because that's the way it was designed.
If it pisses of Marsha - I want it. So give me a rail so I can mount an assault bayonet.
They are not difficult to deal with and a lot easier to fix then a external extractor that can not be tuned at all.
You could always get an AFTEC is an internal extractor is too complicated
The problem with Ruger, Remington, Auto Ord and any other "value priced" guns is that it's a crap shoot. You might get a good one like you did or you might get total crap and the chances of getting crap is higher than with S&W or Sig. Like I mentioned earlier I've had two Rugers that were both fails and won't try for a third. I have one boxed up right now for a second return to factory after just getting it back. Their CS is awesome but it has to be because they fail so often. Love their revolvers. Will never buy another semi auto.
The only downside of a rail, IMHO, is that you'll limit your holster selection significantly, particularly if you like digging around in bins of old holsters at gun shows and gun shops. Outside of that, if it doesn't bother you, go for it.
I agree on the commentary WRT extractors, as well. A conventional 1911 extractor can be serviced and tensioned by pretty much any competent smith. If it breaks its trivial to either stock or get replacement parts.
BTW I find it strange you've had such bad luck with the ruger 1911s. There have been a few issues with those guns but overall they've been pretty reliable. Like any other "production type" cheaper 1911 though, there are bound to be lemons here and there.
-Mike
I agree on the commentary WRT extractors, as well. A conventional 1911 extractor can be serviced and tensioned by pretty much any competent smith. If it breaks its trivial to either stock or get replacement parts.
BTW I find it strange you've had such bad luck with the ruger 1911s. There have been a few issues with those guns but overall they've been pretty reliable. Like any other "production type" cheaper 1911 though, there are bound to be lemons here and there.
-Mike
It's not that it's complicated. I just think that in the year 2013 we should be able to make that kind of adjustment without brute force and bending things. It's pretty archaic if you ask me. My guess is that many an Engineer has had a good idea that wan't implemented because the companies want to keep it original. Like in baseball for instance. They are just now getting to replay but have had the technology for years. Some people don't like change.
It's a 1911, get used to it. Or get something else. With a few exceptions (for example, an integral plunger tube, titanium firing pins instead of series 80 crap, higher accuracy barrel systems, magwells... etc.) most improvements on the 1911 design amount to being a fools errand. If inherent design flaws annoy you that much, you're better off not owning a 1911, because it's filled with them. Granted, in a properly fitted gun made with good parts this will rarely be an issue.
-Mike
Sorry, I wasn't clear... I haven't had a Ruger 1911 or any 1911. I meant I've had two Ruger semi auto's and both have failed miserably. SR45 and SR22. Multiple problems on both guns and won't buy another. I'll stick with Ruger for revolvers. They know how to make revolvers.
Actually it is the opposite, one piece of metal instead on 3. No little springs to crack, no pins to break. Easily tuned and quick to replace.
The engineering problem is without wrecking the things that sell the 1911 (trigger, ergonomics, low bore axis, high accuracy in some guns, huge aftermarket parts, sights and accessories) you can't fix those "problems. " If the industry could do it they would have done it already, if anything, to make the guns cheaper to produce and reduce the failure/return rate. The base design was built in an era that had no knowledge of modern manufacturing processes, and there's no real getting around it.
-Mike
The SRxx centerfires are not exactly polished designs.... haven't been out that long , not something I would judge ruger over, frankly. And the SR22... every .22LR gun in its price class is a piece of shit, so that is pretty much par for the course ... EG, P22 Walther, Sig Mosquito, etc.
-Mike
I was an engineer in my other life. Design flaws made me lose sleep for 20 years and I still analyze things even though I've been out of the biz for years now.
The voice of reason speaks - the platform isn't perfect but it has been around forever for a reason. IMO nothing points and shoots like a 1911, and that can't be replicated. Extractors can be tuned or replaced...headaches like this aren't unique to the platform.
Just buy whatever makes you happy. Personally I love rail 1911. Have a sig half rail with external extractor. I have springfield trp operator internal extractor full rail. They both work and never had a problem with either of them.
For me, if it didn't have some sort of rail or something different. I probably wouldn't of bought a 1911 , there is so many of them around with traditional look that just boring
For me, if it didn't have some sort of rail or something different. I probably wouldn't of bought a 1911 , there is so many of them around with traditional look that just boring
OK somehow rail vs. no rail became internal vs. external extractor ![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
. I think I have the rail thing covered. As far as extractors I'll do some more reading. I don't want to have to bring my gun to someone to fiddle with so if I get something with an internal extractor maybe I'll get my own tool. It's a pretty simple process from what I can see. I don't mind spending time messing with my guns to make them look and function right.
I do understand that if a gun shoots straight certain limitations can be accepted. The first 1911 I fired was a Smith and the damned thing nearly shot by itself. I pointed where I wanted it to go and that's where it went. Granted it has an external extractor but the operation is basically the same.
. I think I have the rail thing covered. As far as extractors I'll do some more reading. I don't want to have to bring my gun to someone to fiddle with so if I get something with an internal extractor maybe I'll get my own tool. It's a pretty simple process from what I can see. I don't mind spending time messing with my guns to make them look and function right.I do understand that if a gun shoots straight certain limitations can be accepted. The first 1911 I fired was a Smith and the damned thing nearly shot by itself. I pointed where I wanted it to go and that's where it went. Granted it has an external extractor but the operation is basically the same.
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goodzilla
NES Member
Was in Four Seasons once, a guy was bringing in his SIG 1911 for the 2nd time with issues, he was clearly pissed. My Ruger 1911 has been flawless to date (although others have had sight and weird rusting problems). Just sayin', maybe not as clear cut as it seems. Then again, I love my West German P226 and would trust it with my life without hesitation...the thing would probably reliably feed brass reloaded 20 time, with a bullet made from deer dung.
