New York Times article on Project Appleseed

[Nickle]

Carlos Hathcock made it look easy.

Understatement of the millenium.

 

[bpm990d]

60 rounds versus 600 rounds, which will get the basics set into your muscle memory faster?

I disagree. When someone is learning a physical skill that requires fine motor coordination, sometimes less is more. Beyond a certain point the value of more rounds diminishes precipitously.

Practice does not make perfect. Perfect training makes perfect.

B

 

[hbennett]

Let me rephrase that: "If your primary interest is learning how to shoot a rifle and you don't mind missing out on the other aspects of Appleseed...consider attending a CMP clinic." To be clear I have absolutely no beef with Appleseed.

I have attended a CMP clinic and shot CMP matches for a couple of years. Honestly,
I felt that the quality of instruction at the appleseeds I attended was far and above
that at the CMP clinics.. At the CMP clinic I attended (10+ years ago) we fired 1 simulated match..apporoximately 52 rounds.. including sighters.. I went through over
1000 rounds at my first appleseed.. The CMP clinic was more about how to handle
an M1 safely..and a lot of aiming theory.. Appleseed was definitely more hands-on..YMMVH..

 

[Len-2A Training]

Personal opinion here . . .

If you have experience with CMP clinic and matches under your belt . . . I believe that Appleseed can build nicely on that skill.

For a newbie to slung rifle shooting, I found Appleseed to be lacking in initial instruction that would have been most helpful. Throwing tons of rounds downrange (which we did) won't make up for lack of knowledge wrt how to shoot the rifle properly and covering some gotchas that can bite you if you aren't prepared for them.

 

[lupis42]

Personal opinion here . . .

If you have experience with CMP clinic and matches under your belt . . . I believe that Appleseed can build nicely on that skill.

For a newbie to slung rifle shooting, I found Appleseed to be lacking in initial instruction that would have been most helpful. Throwing tons of rounds downrange (which we did) won't make up for lack of knowledge wrt how to shoot the rifle properly and covering some gotchas that can bite you if you aren't prepared for them.

What would you like to see covered that we miss?

 

[Len-2A Training]

What would you like to see covered that we miss?

I had planned on eventually sending an Email to Nickle, Crak, and a few other Appleseed instructors that I know . . .

Very briefly:

- Don't assume that the Appleseed shooter has ever shot CMP before or has any training with a sling.

- Immediately go over the proper way to use the sling and how to get into/out of it efficiently. [I spent >1/2 of Saturday fighting with the sling and it wasn't working for me. Finally an instructor walking by caught it and said "you don't have it on correctly, here let me show you how". It was like night and day, a great help. Why not spend 5-10 minutes showing everyone before we get started shooting?]

- Warn shooters to be on the lookout for barrel drift ("muzzle, muzzle, muzzle") if they have short arms and are trying to insert the next mag with gun still in position. And how to make sure it doesn't happen! [I fell victim to this. As I was reaching with the right hand to insert the mag, with butt of rifle on shoulder, the barrel and left arm started to swing left. I realized that for me, I had to remove the butt from my shoulder to reload safely! Had we been made aware that this might be the case, I could have prevented the muzzle drift the first time.]

- Tell us what direction to turn the adjustment tool for the rear Techsight to move the sight to the right/left. IIRC, the sight isn't marked "R with arrow" and knowing whether to turn it forward or backward to achieve whatever adjustment we need would be useful to know upfront. [I had just mounted the sight on the 10/22 as I'm sure some others had done and therefore had no idea if it was adjusted properly or not. I think that peep sight is mounted on a worm-gear but it could be right or left threaded. No instructions come with the sights when you buy them either.]

 

[lupis42]

I had planned on eventually sending an Email to Nickle, Crak, and a few other Appleseed instructors that I know . . .

Very briefly:

- Don't assume that the Appleseed shooter has ever shot CMP before or has any training with a sling.

- Immediately go over the proper way to use the sling and how to get into/out of it efficiently. [I spent >1/2 of Saturday fighting with the sling and it wasn't working for me. Finally an instructor walking by caught it and said "you don't have it on correctly, here let me show you how". It was like night and day, a great help. Why not spend 5-10 minutes showing everyone before we get started shooting?]

This should be covered early on Saturday, along with the prone position. Were you using a less common sling, like a ching sling?

- Warn shooters to be on the lookout for barrel drift ("muzzle, muzzle, muzzle") if they have short arms and are trying to insert the next mag with gun still in position. And how to make sure it doesn't happen! [I fell victim to this. As I was reaching with the right hand to insert the mag, with butt of rifle on shoulder, the barrel and left arm started to swing left. I realized that for me, I had to remove the butt from my shoulder to reload safely! Had we been made aware that this might be the case, I could have prevented the muzzle drift the first time.]

- Tell us what direction to turn the adjustment tool for the rear Techsight to move the sight to the right/left. IIRC, the sight isn't marked "R with arrow" and knowing whether to turn it forward or backward to achieve whatever adjustment we need would be useful to know upfront. [I had just mounted the sight on the 10/22 as I'm sure some others had done and therefore had no idea if it was adjusted properly or not. I think that peep sight is mounted on a worm-gear but it could be right or left threaded. No instructions come with the sights when you buy them either.]

Those are good thoughts, I'll try to remember them.

 

[Stratocaster1422]

- Don't assume that the Appleseed shooter has ever shot CMP before or has any training with a sling.

- Immediately go over the proper way to use the sling and how to get into/out of it efficiently. [I spent >1/2 of Saturday fighting with the sling and it wasn't working for me. Finally an instructor walking by caught it and said "you don't have it on correctly, here let me show you how". It was like night and day, a great help. Why not spend 5-10 minutes showing everyone before we get started shooting?

This was definitely covered on Saturday when going over prone position.

- Warn shooters to be on the lookout for barrel drift ("muzzle, muzzle, muzzle") if they have short arms and are trying to insert the next mag with gun still in position. And how to make sure it doesn't happen! [I fell victim to this. As I was reaching with the right hand to insert the mag, with butt of rifle on shoulder, the barrel and left arm started to swing left. I realized that for me, I had to remove the butt from my shoulder to reload safely! Had we been made aware that this might be the case, I could have prevented the muzzle drift the first time.

Very good point, and I'm definitely going to add that to my repertoire of safety tips. What was the first safety rule though? ALWAYS keep the muzzle......

- Tell us what direction to turn the adjustment tool for the rear Techsight ....No instructions come with the sights when you buy them either.]

They definitely come with instructions, maybe yours didn't, but the two sets of Tech Sights I have ordered came with instructions as did the three or four I have ordered for friends over the past year. I'm going to add those instructions to my book, because that's something I can't seem to keep in my brain.

Thanks for the input Len

 

[Len-2A Training]

This should be covered early on Saturday, along with the prone position. Were you using a less common sling, like a ching sling?

I was using the sling that was recommended on the Appleseed forum.

I was using the wrong part for the loop and thus it would not easily tighten/loosen when needed. Whoever came over to me mid-afternoon pointed out the problem and a simple solution that worked great.

My Tech Sights didn't come with adjustment directions. If mfr put an R--> like all scope mfrs do on the sight, that would be great, but failing that AS Instructors should cover it. We were told to adjust and how front sight affected POI, but not specifically which direction to turn tool to go Right/Left on the Tech Sights.

 

[Stratocaster1422]

I was using the wrong part for the loop and thus it would not easily tighten/loosen when needed. Whoever came over to me mid-afternoon pointed out the problem and a simple solution that worked great.

Many shooters make that mistake after having been shown where the loop is. When drinking from a firehose of information, it's tough to remember everything.

My Tech Sights didn't come with adjustment directions. If mfr put an R--> like all scope mfrs do on the sight, that would be great, but failing that AS Instructors should cover it. We were told to adjust and how front sight affected POI, but not specifically which direction to turn tool to go Right/Left on the Tech Sights.

Weird, did you order them from Tech Sight brand new?

 

[dwarven1]

I was using the sling that was recommended on the Appleseed forum.

I was using the wrong part for the loop and thus it would not easily tighten/loosen when needed. Whoever came over to me mid-afternoon pointed out the problem and a simple solution that worked great.

Something odd here - that should be specifically covered during the first or second string of the day on Saturday. It's part of the lesson on the prone position.

My Tech Sights didn't come with adjustment directions. If mfr put an R--> like all scope mfrs do on the sight, that would be great, but failing that AS Instructors should cover it. We were told to adjust and how front sight affected POI, but not specifically which direction to turn tool to go Right/Left on the Tech Sights.

One reason that we don't try to tell everyone exactly how to adjust their sights is that not everyone has the same sights. We recommend Tech-Sights, sure, as they're a good aftermarket solution to the stock sights on the 10/22, the 795, the SKS and the Marlin 60s. But we can't know EVERY type of sight out there, and we don't try to. Appleseed has a LOT of different rifles show up on the line. So if you move your sights, say, three clicks one way or the other, and your point of impact moves the wrong way, all you have to do is turn the sights three clicks BACK and you're where you started. You don't HAVE to remember which way they go from one week to the next; that's the beauty of sights like that!

Personally, I do not remember which way any of my sights move - tech sights, the sights on my Garand, on my S&W 617, my Mark 1... and I don't try. I turn the sight's adjusting screw a few clicks one way and see which way the sight moves. Then I know which way moves the sight up or down. And since I remember how many clicks I turn it, I just do what I mentioned above - turn them back if needed and then make my adjustment. (Of course, I (and all of us) should probably keep a small notebook with information like which way you turn the screw moves the sights up or down... sounds like you don't, either. )

Just saw this:

Many shooters make that mistake after having been shown where the loop is. When drinking from a firehose of information, it's tough to remember everything.

This is very true - it's one reason that a lot of shooters come back multiple times. There is so much to know!!

 

[Len-2A Training]

Weird, did you order them from Tech Sight brand new?

Ordered new from Tech Sight directly. Maybe the instructions were just missing in my package?

 

[Blitz1]

Another article today on Fox.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/08/18/appleseed-teaching-history-with-guns/?test=latestnews

 

[economist]

Another article today on Fox.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/08/18/appleseed-teaching-history-with-guns/?test=latestnews

From that article:

"At this moment, we do not believe that the Appleseed Project is an extremist organization," said Bill Nigut, the ADL's Southeast regional director. "We don't know where they're headed."

Nigut said his concern is not the ordinary gun enthusiasts who account for much of the attendance at Appleseed events, but the occasional participant with extremist views.

"We also have documented people who go there who have clear anti-government views, who represent the Sovereign Citizens Movement and other militia-type movements -- people who are convinced that they've got to arm themselves against the government breaking into their homes and taking control of their lives," Nigut said.

So, it's an "extremist" view to be concerned about the government breaking into one's home or taking control of one's life? I can think of a few clear historical examples where such a view would have been a very good thing. Is the Anti-Defamation League -- a group with a self-described motivation "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people" -- really taking the position that citizens should not worry about the power of their government? That is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Bob P]

From that article:


So, it's an "extremist" view to be concerned about the government breaking into one's home or taking control of one's life? I can think of a few clear historical examples where such a view would have been a very good thing. Is the Anti-Defamation League -- a group with a self-described motivation "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people" -- really taking the position that citizens should not worry about the power of their government? That is beyond ridiculous.

That's just ADL grandstanding - any opportunity to get your org.'s name in print. Overall it's a very positive article.

 

[hbennett]

I was using the sling that was recommended on the Appleseed forum.

I was using the wrong part for the loop and thus it would not easily tighten/loosen when needed. Whoever came over to me mid-afternoon pointed out the problem and a simple solution that worked great.

My Tech Sights didn't come with adjustment directions. If mfr put an R--> like all scope mfrs do on the sight, that would be great, but failing that AS Instructors should cover it. We were told to adjust and how front sight affected POI, but not specifically which direction to turn tool to go Right/Left on the Tech Sights.

FYI- Some resources I found helpful..

Marine Corps Marksmanship (DVD) http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Corps-Marksmanship-Sean-Casey/dp/B0001DB6GI
"Leather Sling and Shooting Positions" and "Sight Alignment, Trigger Control & The Big Lie" By Jim Owens plus other books by the same author http://www.jarheadtop.com/Books.htm.

I agree appleseed is a good start. For my $$ it is the better value. True, I had a head start with some of the high-power knowledge, but I feel that I would
be further ahead if I started with appleseed first. I haven't been to a CMP match in a while, but given my appleseed training, I'd be curious to see how well I would do now.

 

[namedpipes]

Agree or not with the politics (or even whether it IS politics) - Appleseed is fun and will tend to improve your shooting if you pay attention. That and it is affordable.

 

[MetalgodZ]

Slings ARE covered in the AM on the 1st day, but I've seen multiple different explanations of how to use them, and I see people sling up using the wrong loop before having it noticed and corrected. Good thing to note...thanks, Len.

One reason that we don't try to tell everyone exactly how to adjust their sights is that not everyone has the same sights. We recommend Tech-Sights, sure, as they're a good aftermarket solution to the stock sights on the 10/22, the 795, the SKS and the Marlin 60s. But we can't know EVERY type of sight out there, and we don't try to. Appleseed has a LOT of different rifles show up on the line. So if you move your sights, say, three clicks one way or the other, and your point of impact moves the wrong way, all you have to do is turn the sights three clicks BACK and you're where you started. You don't HAVE to remember which way they go from one week to the next; that's the beauty of sights like that!

Yep. And at the shoots I've been to, it's been covered well in the "know your rifle" portion - everyone's stuff is a little different. I knew which direction the sight needed to move before coming the first time, but the scale on the sights is hard to read, and the fine adjustment is not conducive to ease of first adjustment.

As for the Tech Sights, I did not receive instructions on sight adjustment with mine. I also ordered a slightly custom combination not available directly off of the web site, and had previously chalked the lack of instructions up to the custom order.

This is very true - it's one reason that a lot of shooters come back multiple times. There is so much to know!!

Such a simple concept, yet so much going into it. I still think the repeat is due to addiction.

 

[italianppf2]

I think I'm going to get more info on this "Appleseed" me thinks me likes!

 

[lupis42]

I think I'm going to get more info on this "Appleseed" me thinks me likes!

There's a one-day this Sunday at Harvard, and another on Dec 11-12...