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New Product - CMMG Banshee 10mm AR Pistol or SBR

Varmint

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The 9mm Banshee has me thinking about going through the SBR process, which I think in MA would be to have an FFL get the pistol and when the stamp comes through, add a stock to make it an SBR and take possession?
 

PappyM3

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The 9mm Banshee has me thinking about going through the SBR process, which I think in MA would be to have an FFL get the pistol and when the stamp comes through, add a stock to make it an SBR and take possession?

No AR pistols in MA, essentially. There may be some pre-94 AR pistols out there, but I’ve never seen them. Any post-94/pre-Healey one would have to be neutered in such a way that it didn’t have a handguard (heat shield) or had a polymer receiver to make weight.

If you want to build a fixed-mag 9mm pistol, you could do that but you’d need to “shotgun” the upper receiver in order to load. Those fixed mag AR loading devices won’t work with a Glock mag even if they made them for pi

The way to do it would be to submit the SBR paperwork for a pre-94 rifle lower and then add the short 9mm barrel and a Glock mag adapter for the magwell. That way you can use a small, collapsible PDW stock if you want. Some modern Glock mag adapters for ARs even have bolt hold-open.

I’ve been bouncing between getting another lower to SBR and build a 9mm CMMG delayed blowback carbine or getting an MP5 clone. This new 10mm interests me, but I don’t need another caliber at the moment. My opinion might be different if I could buy new standard capacity mags for $10-$30.
 
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Varmint

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No AR pistols in MA, essentially. There may be some pre-94 AR pistols out there, but I’ve never seen them. Any post-94/pre-Healey one would have to be neutered in such a way that it didn’t have a handguard (heat shield) or was had a polymer receiver to make weight.

If you want to build a fixed-mag 9mm pistol, you could do that but you’d need to “shotgun” the upper receiver in order to load. Those fixed mag AR loading devices won’t work with a Glock mag even if they made them for pi

The way to do it would be to submit the SBR paperwork for a pre-94 rifle lower and then add the short 9mm barrel. That way you can use a small, collapsible PDW stock if you want.

But an FFL can buy a AR pistol and transfer it to you with a stock as an SBR? Maybe that would trigger the 6-9 month wait time since you're not building the SBR yourself.

I don't want a pistol just wondering how to SBR a Banshee without the long wait time.
 

PappyM3

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But an FFL can buy a AR pistol and transfer it to you with a stock as an SBR? Maybe that would trigger the 6-9 month wait time since you're not building the SBR yourself.

I don't want a pistol just wondering how to SBR a Banshee without the long wait time.

Since it’s an “AR-15” duplicate or copy according to Herr Healey, you won’t be able to get a new one whether you wait until it’s an sbr or not. And if any pre-94 lower first started life as a rifle, it can never become a pistol.
 
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Since it’s an “AR-15” duplicate or copy according to Herr Healey, you won’t be able to get a new one whether you wait until it’s an sbr or not. And if any pre-94 lower ever had a stock attached, it’s permanently a rifle.

Only if it was first built as a rifle. If it was first built as a pistol, then it can go back and forth between rifle and pistol configurations without issue.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download
 
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But an FFL can buy a AR pistol and transfer it to you with a stock as an SBR? Maybe that would trigger the 6-9 month wait time since you're not building the SBR yourself.

The dealer could make it an SBR with a Form 2, but then it's an NFA item and requires a Form 4 to transfer it to an individual (and yes, the wait time for those is measured in months).

That was doable before the edict came down that SBRs (and other things like the "shockwave" style not-a-shotguns) have to be on the Approved Firearms Roster to be transferred by dealers. Now dealers can't transfer them because none of them are on the Roster, so in MA it's not an option anymore.

The only way to do it now would be to get the lower, have it transferred to you, file the Form 1, then once the Form 1 is completed get the upper and build your SBR. Since it's a Glock mag lower, some dealers may be willing to transfer it.
 

PappyM3

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Only if it was first built as a rifle. If it was first built as a pistol, then it can go back and forth between rifle and pistol configurations without issue.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Thank you for that clarification. Though, pre-94 AR pistols are still either unicorns or just don’t exist.

For others, the details are elaborated below in more easily read English.

Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
 

Varmint

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Since it’s an “AR-15” duplicate or copy according to Herr Healey, you won’t be able to get a new one whether you wait until it’s an sbr or not. And if any pre-94 lower ever had a stock attached, it’s permanently a rifle.

Ok, wasn't sure about the Banshee. Of course if it's an SBR it's not a rifle under Mass law and so not under the AG's edict, but that's another story.
 

Varmint

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The dealer could make it an SBR with a Form 2, but then it's an NFA item and requires a Form 4 to transfer it to an individual (and yes, the wait time for those is measured in months).

That was doable before the edict came down that SBRs (and other things like the "shockwave" style not-a-shotguns) have to be on the Approved Firearms Roster to be transferred by dealers. Now dealers can't transfer them because none of them are on the Roster, so in MA it's not an option anymore.

The only way to do it now would be to get the lower, have it transferred to you, file the Form 1, then once the Form 1 is completed get the upper and build your SBR. Since it's a Glock mag lower, some dealers may be willing to transfer it.

Ok thanks! I should probably do that before they 'reinterpret' more laws.
 

JRT

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Thank you for that clarification. Though, pre-94 AR pistols are still either unicorns or just don’t exist.

For others, the details are elaborated below in more easily read English.

Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

ATF logic at its best.
 

Dennis in MA

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How about a G20/21 (I forget which) with a CAA chassis and hicap mags??? Effectively almost the same thing. $250, tops. Pistol brace. And can convert back to a Glock in a few seconds. You just need a 3rdGen Glock in 10mm.
 

Varmint

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How about a G20/21 (I forget which) with a CAA chassis and hicap mags??? Effectively almost the same thing. $250, tops. Pistol brace. And can convert back to a Glock in a few seconds. You just need a 3rdGen Glock in 10mm.

There's a video comparing exactly that, 9mm CAA to Banshee. He liked both. I'll look for it.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Since it’s an “AR-15” duplicate or copy according to Herr Healey, you won’t be able to get a new one whether you wait until it’s an sbr or not. And if any pre-94 lower ever had a stock attached, it’s permanently a rifle.

This is just me spit-balling here, but considering AR-9's are typically blowback instead of DGI, couldn't it then be argued that it isn't a copy in the same way a Sig Virtus or MPX isn't a copy, despite having many similar features? The core operating system is not interchangeable.
 

Varmint

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This is just me spit-balling here, but considering AR-9's are typically blowback instead of DGI, couldn't it then be argued that it isn't a copy in the same way a Sig Virtus or MPX isn't a copy, despite having many similar features? The core operating system is not interchangeable.

Yeah I don't get how it's a copy, but it's really up to the FFL
 

PappyM3

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This is just me spit-balling here, but considering AR-9's are typically blowback instead of DGI, couldn't it then be argued that it isn't a copy in the same way a Sig Virtus or MPX isn't a copy, despite having many similar features? The core operating system is not interchangeable.

Well, the CMMG uses their “radial delayed blowback” which is more similar to the normal AR bolt mechanism. Regardless though, it seems to fail Healey’s parts interchangeability test.

I 100% don’t agree with her definitions of “duplicate” and “copy”, though.

Yeah I don't get how it's a copy, but it's really up to the FFL

If you can find an FFL willing to transfer it, that’s fantastic and I hope you do get one transferred as they’re not actual copies or duplicates of the 1994 Colt AR-15 rifle. But read the text of Healey’s interchangeability test.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Well, the CMMG uses their “radial delayed blowback” which is more similar to the normal AR bolt mechanism. Regardless though, it seems to fail Healey’s parts interchangeability test.

I 100% don’t agree with her definitions of “duplicate” and “copy”, though.



If you can find an FFL willing to transfer it, that’s fantastic and I hope you do get one transferred as they’re not actual copies or duplicates of the 1994 Colt AR-15 rifle. But read the text of Healey’s interchangeability test.

I'd argue the radially delayed blowback is closer in function to a roller lock of an MP5. This CMMG doesn't even have a gas port. However, I see your point about interchangeability. Uppers/lowers would be swappable, at least in pin fit. Triggers, charging handles, furniture--that would all also be swappable.
 

TPNES

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Since the case law is minimal or nonexistent it really comes down to which FFL will do the transfer. Some are entirely comfortable ordering “non-AR duplicates” in factory pistol configuration, which they cannot transfer to you since it’s not on the approved roster. However, they can hold onto the pistol for you while you apply for an SBR stamp as others mentioned, once approved they do the Mass AWB compliant changes to it, such as pinned stock, and voila they can transfer to you. Silly? Yes. Legal? As it’s written yes. Some “non AR” platforms include the various Sig MCX/MPX (which you can just straight up buy in rifle configuration as well and then chop it down). I’ve also seen B&T’s products have this done including GHM, APC, TP9.

It’s entirely likely you can find an FFL willing to do this process for the banshee if they believe it is not an AR clone. The Sig is legal, it has several interchangeable parts with the AR, but uses a different trigger and piston system. SCAR, CZ Bren, Tavor also legal. HK416/MR556 despite having a different trigger and a piston system is not legal! Upsetting since I would buy that platform in a second. Have an AR lower? You can buy the MR556 upper, a 416 trigger, and throw it on, that’s legal. Go figure. Let us know if Banshee goes through!

I’ve looked into the MP5 clone as well, this can be done through the pistol to SBR process, or rifle to SBR chop down. Unfortunately from the FFLs I’ve asked there are some long wait times in getting delivery from their distributors. Several months, then the transfer rigamarole adds some more on. Would be nice to find an FFL with a zenith in stock to skip some of that wait.
 
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jron

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But an FFL can buy a AR pistol and transfer it to you with a stock as an SBR? Maybe that would trigger the 6-9 month wait time since you're not building the SBR yourself.

I don't want a pistol just wondering how to SBR a Banshee without the long wait time.

Why not just get a lower, submit the stamp and then build it.
 

ReluctantDecoy

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Why not just get a lower, submit the stamp and then build it.

That's the route I would take, but after calling around to a few places this weekend, I couldn't immediately find one who would deal with the Banshee lowers. One place was a flat out "no". The other two seemed hesitant and decided to err on the side of caution. I didn't try to argue the differences and push back, as I get it that it must be tough dancing the line between compliance and customer demand. I'd love one, but only if it's 100% no questioning kosher. I just have no time to deal with any BS should I be questioned over it.
 

DosesR1

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That's the route I would take, but after calling around to a few places this weekend, I couldn't immediately find one who would deal with the Banshee lowers. One place was a flat out "no". The other two seemed hesitant and decided to err on the side of caution. I didn't try to argue the differences and push back, as I get it that it must be tough dancing the line between compliance and customer demand. I'd love one, but only if it's 100% no questioning kosher. I just have no time to deal with any BS should I be questioned over it.
I see some shops selling new 9mm ar’s I wonder why the banshee is a no no
 

amm5061

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I see some shops selling new 9mm ar’s I wonder why the banshee is a no no

Because in pistol configuration it's not on the list and would violate the Mass AWB, and in SBR configuration it's a "firearm" and therefore subject to the roster requirements and not on the list. And if you actually live in Boston you get a third layer of bullshit with the city's own AWB.
 
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