Negligent discharges double after switch to M&P

[JRT]

Intersting article regarding LA County deputies negligent discharge rates after switch to M&P. The article doesn't specifically state the triggers are stock. It does note that in NYC they add a stiffer trigger to all standard issue guns.

Accidental gunshots by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies have more than doubled in two years, endangering bystanders and occasionally injuring deputies. The jump coincides with the department's move to a new handgun that lacks a safety lever and requires less pressure to pull the trigger.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html#page=1

 

[Glockfan71]

I kept the stock trigger on my carry which is a shield and never put my finger on the trigger when holstering and unholstering and have been fine. Keeping your finger on the trigger when searching a home was problem #1. Even officers are trained to keep their fingers off the trigger until they have identified their target. Sounds like negligence and not accident to me in this article even with the standard free state 6-7lb trigger.

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[Rob Boudrie]

No problem. When an officer has an A/D it is simply an accident for which no criminal charges are appropriate. (Pretty much the exact words of the Middlesex DA before Eurise Stamps was even in the ground)

 

[Glockfan71]

I forgot to mention that. Thanks for adding.

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[Mike S]

How about teaching and training those morons about keeping the trigger finger along the slide or frame and off the bang switch. Safeties and lighter triggers have nothing to do with this problem.

- - - Updated - - -

It is a training issue.

Insert obligatory Black Hawk Down image here:

Seriously though, I find it astounding how often the media and others talk about "guns just going off", like they have a mind of their own.

 

[jaypap]

Richard Fairburn, a firearms expert who works for a law enforcement agency in Illinois, called the M&P a "more modern weapon" that enables more officers to shoot well. But, he said, the lighter trigger pull and lack of a safety could result in more accidental discharges if the new habits aren't drummed into deputies through rigorous training.

"If you still have your finger on the trigger when you put it in your holster, you'll end up with a stripe on your leg," Fairburn said.

There you have it. Common sense is not part of the Police exam.

 

[jho]

Are police qualifications stationary shooting or real life scenario?
I don't see how people will smaller hands can't make adjustments to get a passing score.

Apparently, if you are holding a Beretta "on sight on trigger" lol

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[Hoover]

No problem. When an officer has an A/D it is simply an accident for which no criminal charges are appropriate. (Pretty much the exact words of the Middlesex DA before Eurise Stamps was even in the ground)

That Framingham cop/swat member Paul duncan didn't even lose his job for killing Stamps is disgusting. While it was an accidental, it was still the result of Duncan's negligence.

And they sent the Framingham SWAT team to serve a warrant, not for a suspected murderer or other person with links to violence, but rather to get two teens for minor drug charges. Absurd SWAT is used for minor stuff like that.

 

[jho]

There is qual and there is training the two are not the same and nor should they be. Some police administrators would like it to be so, that way it doesn't cost as much (Man hours are the biggest expense). In the usual MPTC qualification, (15 Yards longest distance) sights are really only flashed during target acquisition and engagement, Not like bullseye shooting.

Some depts. have the ability to have scenario training most do not. They can be creative if they wished too and develop such.

I'm guessing force on force for every individual would be too expensive.

It's much easier to blame gun manufacturers than to properly train each individual.

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[sig shooter]

I don't get what is so hard about keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. I refuse to believe that officers with that department are so stupid that they cannot operate a gun safely. I truly shows the anti gun fodder "only the police are qualified to carry guns" as true unadulterated bullshit.

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[hminsky]

It seems like the police removed safeties from guns a long time ago, because they were simply too complicated for the
rank and file to learn how to use reliably.

Then they put in these 20 pound triggers like in NYC, so that there's no way to shoot accurately. And yet the police there still manage to randomly fire their guns.

So at this point they seem to be out of options. Maybe the 'smart gun' technology is called for now, so the gun only fires when the policeman yells "Bang! BANG! BANG!".

 

[Another_David]

I think the best reinforcement for not putting your finger on the trigger is a slap on the wrist--literally.

When you see this you need to at the very least touch the person and say--where's your finger? Get inside their head a little. Then just maybe they start to hear your voice inside their head reminding them.

If it were a boot camp / academy training have them run or do push ups.

I'd like to get a horse whip and slap people on their wrist when I see it but I'm not even an instructor so I might get shot.

But seriously, whenever I coach someone you need to be johnny on the spot to squash that crap and tolerate nothing.

 

[mibro]

How about teaching and training those morons about keeping the trigger finger along the slide or frame and off the bang switch. Safeties and lighter triggers have nothing to do with this problem.
It is a training issue.

I know that's the preferred answer here but as a former designer of industrial processes my opinion is it's more of a process issue.

Create a situation where you have a large enough number of trials (opportunities for ND) and some of those trials will produce an undesirable result - i.e. a ND. It doesn't matter how good the training is. Training will mitigate the problem but can not eliminate it.

One of my favorite design techniques, partly because of the Japanese name, is poka-yoke, part of the Toyota Design System. Translation - mistake proofing.

If you want to prevent NDs in a large enough population of firearms users you will have to take a poka-yoke approach. Training is not enough.

Anyway, if you're interested, here's more on poka-yoke. If you think this is bullsh!t, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[Another_David]

I know that's the preferred answer here but as a former designer of industrial processes my opinion is it's more of a process issue.

Create a situation where you have a large enough number of trials (opportunities for ND) and some of those trials will produce an undesirable result - i.e. a ND. It doesn't matter how good the training is. Training will mitigate the problem but can not eliminate it.

One of my favorite design techniques, partly because of the Japanese name, is poka-yoke, part of the Toyota Design System. Translation - mistake proofing.

If you want to prevent NDs in a large enough population of firearms users you will have to take a poka-yoke approach. Training is not enough.

Anyway, if you're interested, here's more on poka-yoke. If you think this is bullsh!t, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

yup, Design Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (DFMEA). good stuff.

but anyone in IT will tell you that even if the software works and installs flawlessly it will be a total failure if you don't reeducate the users. A lot of large organizations use old software not because they can't afford to buy new software but because they can't afford to retrain their staff.

A big part of this is training. Imagine trying to send the senior officers back to the academy and the union's reaction to potentially disqualifying officers that can't pass current standards with new equipment--in a word, "no."

 

[Glockster30]

This just proves that LEO's should carry in condition 3.

In addition, the reporter needs to learn gun language:

which is widespread in law enforcement and includes the Glock used by many agencies, is too easy to misfire.

 

[Lcstyle]

sympathetic muscle response




let's just say I don't trust that many law enforcement officers around firearms or weapons of any kind.

p.s. keep your booger hook off the bang switch

 

[NHAtHeart]

sympathetic muscle response




let's just say I don't trust that many law enforcement officers around firearms or weapons of any kind.

p.s. keep your booger hook off the bang switch

Holy shit I can't believe that guy didn't get nuked...

I can only imagine what the other officer was saying.

 

[ToddDubya]

I know that's the preferred answer here but as a former designer of industrial processes my opinion is it's more of a process issue.

Create a situation where you have a large enough number of trials (opportunities for ND) and some of those trials will produce an undesirable result - i.e. a ND. It doesn't matter how good the training is. Training will mitigate the problem but can not eliminate it.

One of my favorite design techniques, partly because of the Japanese name, is poka-yoke, part of the Toyota Design System. Translation - mistake proofing.

If you want to prevent NDs in a large enough population of firearms users you will have to take a poka-yoke approach. Training is not enough.

Anyway, if you're interested, here's more on poka-yoke. If you think this is bullsh!t, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

In my line of business we call that "sailor-proofing". Connectors are keyed, can only be connected the correct way, etc.

The trouble with idiot-proofing things is that someone will always build a better idiot. Adding a safety, 35# trigger, 16 snapcaps +1 live round only serves to allow people to hang around with their booger hooks on the bang switches.

Initially, the extent of my firearms training came my basic pistol safety course (at age 32). When we were demonstrating we could safely handle cleared firearms I had to be reminded a couple times not to put my finger on the trigger. Ever since then I haven't had a problem. Hell I keep my finger outside the trigger guard on my staple gun until I'm ready to staple.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I'm saying it's not a hard problem to fix even after three decades of doing it incorrectly.

 

[mibro]

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I'm saying it's not a hard problem to fix even after three decades of doing it incorrectly.

I don't doubt you. My guess is the people who post here are way above average in aptitude, skills and awareness.

But....ask a room full of men to rate their own driving skills, for example, and you'll find everyone's above average.

I always come at these problems from the perspective of dealing with a total population including both tails of the normal distribution.

 

[ToddDubya]

I don't doubt you. My guess is the people who post here are way above average in aptitude, skills and awareness.

But....ask a room full of men to rate their own driving skills, for example, and you'll find everyone's above average.

I always come at these problems from the perspective of dealing with a total population including both tails of the normal distribution.

True. My aptitude, skills and awareness are way above average How perceptive of you.

I can also see ego getting in the way of instruction.

 

[aeromarine]

LAPD? Maybe they should go back to double action only S&W Model 10s and 15s, you know, the ones with the bobbed hammers.

 

[Varmint]

How about teaching and training those morons about keeping the trigger finger along the slide or frame and off the bang switch. Safeties and lighter triggers have nothing to do with this problem.

Assuming all else is equal (same amount of training when they had guns with safeties), the trigger and safeties are obviously a factor.

 

[weekendracer]

The Mass. Environmental Police transitioned from S&W Model 64 and 65s to the Sigma, we spent a week per officer, drawing and holstering drills plus 1000rds So as to get the conditioning of finger along the slide or frame until target was engaged. We then went over to the Glock 22, minimal transitional training. I now understand they are carrying S&W $0 M&Ps. Yes we did have some folks that were resistant to the process but time corrected that problem as those folks are now all retired.

This is what I'd like to see, what transition training did these 'guys' get. When I transitioned from the 96D to the USP, they handed me the gun. I took it upon myself to burn a couple hundred rounds getting used to it. Somehow I have yet to shoot my gun when I didn't want to.

You also have to consider the whole mentality that cops are 'gun guys', which most are not. I've seen some nasty stuff in guns, especially pool weapons that never got cleaned. I'd be willing to bet the guys with ND's probably don't know what bullet weight they are shooting, ballistics of the round, how much drop over 50 yards, etc. Basic gun stuff, that was the first thing most people posted on my AR group pictures: What round, weight, you posers didn't ask me the density altitude or wind conditions (scoff).

 

[Dadstoys]

There really does need to be a total revamp of firearms training for LE.
Can the entire system and start from scratch.
Get some retired DI's and make it independant from any dept.
Bet basic safety will stick more in the head after the 2nd or third time your PTed till you think your gonna die for screwing up.

 

[weekendracer]

Lots of repetition of basics.

I understand what you are saying, my point was LAPD. Did they get recerted or did they just get handed guns and a pat on the back.

 

[Wendell]

It's much easier to blame gun manufacturers than to properly train each individual.

Good thing the M&P is 'safer' to take down than a Glock.

We can only imagine how many baby seals might have died had they been equipped with (more-popular) 'less safe' Glocks.

 

[robjax]

yup...again it's the gun's fault. Not the idiots carrying them and snagging the trigger with their booger hooks....

Bad Gun!!! Stop accidentally discharging....

 

[Pinion]

Desk Pop

 

[jkelly1229]

yup, Design Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (DFMEA). good stuff.

but anyone in IT will tell you that even if the software works and installs flawlessly it will be a total failure if you don't reeducate the users. A lot of large organizations use old software not because they can't afford to buy new software but because they can't afford to retrain their staff.

A big part of this is training. Imagine trying to send the senior officers back to the academy and the union's reaction to potentially disqualifying officers that can't pass current standards with new equipment--in a word, "no."

Yeah I put in a new phone for this sweet little old secretary who was in her 70s and had the phone I was replacing for 40 years. I did one training class for everyone and then spent four hours with her alone. People hate change that's why love them or hate them glocks are almost idiot proof. You could have a guy who had a Gen 1 never picked one up again until last week and that's a Gen 4 and low and behold he can use it instantly because they are dumb simple. That's why if a department uses them I'd have a hard time going away from them. Also please the cops can lose their jobs if they say they are shooting them because they aren't trained well. Why lose your phony baloney jobs when u can blame the gun and get more funding

 

[familyman15]

Deskpop, lmfao im dying