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Need help with bad shooters...

massnee

massnee

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I have run in to a difficult handgun training situation a couple of times over the past few months.

The student lines the sights properly...they utilize proper trigger squeeze...however they shoot very very high...like two feet high at a 20 foot distance.

I have had them close their non-dominate eye…does not help.

Does anyone know what they could be doing wrong?

The only thing I can figure is that their eyes are shot (excuse the pun).
 
massnee said:
I have run in to a difficult handgun training situation a couple of times over the past few months.

The student lines the sights properly...they utilize proper trigger squeeze...however they shoot very very high...like two feet high at a 20 foot distance.

I have had them close their non-dominate eye…does not help.

Does anyone know what they could be doing wrong?

The only thing I can figure is that their eyes are shot (excuse the pun).
Click to expand...

Have you considered astigmatism? Has the student had his/her eyes checked recently? Has the Optometrist stated whether he/she has it or not?

I know with myself, (having astigmatism) I can pick up a new piece right out of the box and shoot low and left. Adjust the sights for my eyes and get on the money. Give the same piece to someone who has so-called "normal sight" and they will be high and to the right.

Grin, I'm no doctor, but it appears to be the way the "seen" image is relayed to the retina. Not everyone sees things the same way, depending on the shape of the eyeball, how light (images) are transmitted through it, etc.

Its worth a check, especially if the person has not had an eye exam in a while anyway. Have your student ask at the end of the exam if it is present or not, and what effect their individual amount has on perception.
 
2 feet is alot! I think they are lining up the bottom of the front sight with the top of the back!

I just picked up one of my guns and did that and it will put me 2' high at 20'
 
They could also be "heeling" the gun.
Anticipating the recoil and pushing the bottom of the gun with the palm of their shooting hand.
 
Maybe they're "looking over the sights" and not aligning properly.

Also, sometime people will anticipate shot and drop the pistol prematurely to see where the shot landed. This often leads to low shots but can also lead to high shots if the person points the muzzle up after each shot in a as-seen-on TV ready position (wrong).
 
massnee: Start by reducing variables. Have them shoot the pistol while seated, with the pistol either on a rest or their hands resting on a bench. They will have much less movement when shooting from a seated position. If they are still having problems, have them hold the gun and aim it, but you pull the trigger -- that removes the anticipation.
 
Thank you for the help.

My student from yesterday was aiming for the belly of a IPSC target and shooting rounds in the same hole in the head of the target. [shocked]

Out of the 60 students I have had this year I have seen two do this. The advice you guys are giving me is very helpful...I am sure I will see this again.
 
it is unlikely that his grip was wrong as I could visible see he was holding the handgun properly (teaching him proper grip was part of the class).

The fact that he was placing the rounds in the same hole indicates that his trigger control and grip were consistent.
 
There are 2 possible problems. One is the sight picture and the other is the trigger control. Your job is to eliminate one of them so that you can give help on the other. One thing that I routinely do is to have the student aim the firearm with their finger off of the trigger. When they say that they have a good sight picture, I put my finger on the trigger and add pressure until the shot breaks. Usually, the shot is good, so I know, and they know, that the problem is with their hand and their trigger finger.

I have had a few students that knew that they had to get a good sight picture, but did not understand that they had to maintain that sight picture until the shot breaks
 
massnee said:
Thank you for the help.

My student from yesterday was aiming for the belly of a IPSC target and shooting rounds in the same hole in the head of the target. [shocked]
Click to expand...

The guy is probably screwing with you...He is on the US Olympic shooting team and needs to take the class for his MA LTC. He just thought he would have a little fun. [wink]

Honestly, I think it's what I said. The bottom of his front sight is lined up with the top of his back sight.
 
I'm no trainer and have only had my first centerfire handgun for a month but I found I couldn't adjust my sights far enough to compensate for the low and to the left placement of my shots. I knew the gun couldn't be off that much.

I have shot rimfire for years and never had thid kind of trouble. I had to see if it was me or the gun. So, I bought some snap caps and using three magazines 5 snap caps and fifteen live rounds I started to work. I mixed up the snap caps in witht he live rounds and being carefull to think of something else and not pay attention to where the duds were placed, I loaded up the magazines.

The first time I pulled the trigger on a snap cap I laughed out loud at the way I jerked the gun down and left. I continued to do this for a while until I am not jerking nearly as much and can start thinking about trigger control.

I think you should carry a few snap caps in your bag for the next time you are training someone. Put a cap in with at random and watch for how they move when the gun doesn't go off.
 
Sights

I often see sights that are off to the side and to me this is a sign that the shooter is trying to fix a shooting problem by applying a band aid. By a band aid I mean that the shooter has a problem that he or she does not know how to correct with good technique.
The best and certainly the cheapest way to fix a shooting problem is to dry fire, but no more than 15 or 29 minutes at a time. When you dry fire, you should strive to see where the front sight was when the hammer falls. If it is not where you want it to be, you are the problem. By observing when you dry fire, you are also building an important skill - the ability to call your shots. The skill is very important if you want to shoot fast.
 
Another relate to vision - is the person far-sighted? I notice it more with the rifles but it bothers me more with the pistols. The rear sight is fuzzed enough that sometimes I have a hard time determining what is " level with the front sight blade " in sight alignment. If I do, my shots have a tendency to go high.

Joe R.
 
Still sounds like classic "jerking the trigger" to me. I've worked with bad shooters in the past and as much as they'll tell you they're doing it right or may seem like they're doing it right, they're still anticipating the shot when firing the gun. A recommendation I give them is to allow the gun to "surprise" them. Meaning, concentrate on sight alignment and breathing while slowly squeezing the trigger. They should NOT know when the trigger is going to break. More often than not, this really helps. Of course, once the shooter realizes that the gun is not going to jump out of their hands, they'll be more confident doing this.
 
Joe R. said:
Another relate to vision - is the person far-sighted? I notice it more with the rifles but it bothers me more with the pistols. The rear sight is fuzzed enough that sometimes I have a hard time determining what is " level with the front sight blade " in sight alignment. If I do, my shots have a tendency to go high.

Joe R.
Click to expand...

Grin, being nearsighted, it bothers me more with rifles. Can "lock in" on the front and the rear is so fuzzy I'm not sure if all is aligned or not. Pistol not so bad. The red dots are a definite plus for "older" eyes. [grin]
 
The problem might be the misalignment of the iron sights as previously mentioned. Why not eliminate the iron sights? I would try a 22 pistol with a dot scope. This won't cure the problem, but it might help identify it.
 

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