TZCHRIS
NES Member
A buddy called me and said he boned Gisele Bundchen yesterday.
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A buddy called me and said he boned Gisele Bundchen yesterday.
"A buddy called me and said there was an ND in there today"
A buddy called me and said he boned Gisele Bundchen yesterday. Must be true!
I Think everyone who has hijacked this thread shows your ignorance to the issue and it's potential impact to the sport and to people"s lives.
I see this and I ask was there anyone hurt (hope not)?
Understanding the circumstances so the shooting community can take appropriate action is next; the question is what went wrong and was it preventable by the staff?
Was the cause malicious, or carelessness?
What is the corrective action?
As far as the IGNORANT commentary about the shop; I say if you don't like the crowds, then go somewhere else. Do not presume to understand the owner's business or finances. For me he and his staff have been the only retailer I shop at and I travel an hour to get there. He is a true business man; understands the market and business. He is personable and a generous supporter of the sport and youth shooting.
I wish him nothing but the best and hope this incident doesn't affect his demeanor or business.
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Only an AD if it was a cop though
You're friends with Brady? Can he get us some good Pats tickets?
If this happened at any other gun shop, NES would be losing the sh!t over this. But because it happened at the holy four seasons we spend multiple pages saying he should get a bigger shop and that's it's super busy
If there was a nd at four seasons its a big deal. If its busy and a gun goes off everyone is lucky to leave with the same amount of holes in them as they arrived with.
God forbid someone say something bad about FS. I'm sure someone knows what happen, and it sucks that they won't step up and let us know.
It's crowded right? I am sure Carl is great, and the shop is awesome, but clearly it is dictating the way a lot of people feel about an AD in a crowded store. The reason why the "crowded" comments keep coming up is related to the idea that an AD had the potential to harm someone very easily. Also, I didn't read about this event in the paper or see it on the news, it was brought to this forum. Shit happens. We talk about and share ideas about it. It's about learning from events, and people taking responsibility for their actions (or unfortunatley their mistakes). In my opinion, it's the only way to ever have reasonable regulation and laws. The whole "keep it quiet" and "stfu" approach does nothing to help that battle.
Publicizing it can do NO GOOD! Just like any of us could lose our LTC for "unsuitability" because the chief decides he no longer likes/trusts you, the MA Dealer's License is also just as tenuous and can be revoked by the chief that issued it for no reason whatsoever!
I'm sure that whoever did it and Carl both understand the problem created and will take every step necessary to ensure it doesn't happen again, short of banning guns in the shop!
When I was working a gun show in Foxboro, someone was clearing their gun as they entered the show and had an ND (no barrels of sand either, just let one fly in a crowded gun show)! Shit happens, nobody shut the show down, no SWAT response and everyone carried on. Nancy Snow told me of an incident at the (last?) gun show that GOAL ran years ago. Someone had an ND that flew very close to Nancy and others! NOTE: Both of these NDs happened in venues that were MUCH more crowded than FS!!
NO matter what shop it is, this is best handled internally and not with a huge Internet forum looking for gory details. "If it bleeds, it leads" here too!
Actually if it wasn't for one of the fish wives here on NES, very few people would have known about. There isn't any benefit to the shop or gun owners in general to go on and on about it.
As to ND versus AD, it's not the cops that make that distinction. That whole BS started in the shooting community, no doubt by holier than though bubbe meisters trying to make a point.
I actually think it speaks to the quality of the shop that a bunch of us know what happened and not one word has been said here.
Amusing read here though.
I know a guy in CT who has been in the gun business for more than 30 years. On more than one occasion "back in the day" he racked a live round out of a fresh from the factory new gun. I'm not sure this can happen these days. But its worth considering.
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I have been involved with 2 groups and 2 cultures for most of my adult life. The first is the shooting community. As a whole, the people I've met while shooting, at gun shops, at matches, or wherever, have been some of the finest people I've ever met.
My other pursuit has been flying small airplanes. This group is a mixed bag. I'd say 85% good guys. However there is one area where the flying culture is VASTLY SUPERIOR to the shooting culture.
That superiority centers around the willingness to aggressively, humbly, and honestly seek the truth whenever there is an "accident'. Discussions of accidents among members of the flying community necessarily require you to check your ego at the door. They require an honest self assessment. (Could this have happened to me?) The followup conversation typically centers on what could be done individually as well as institutionally to prevent this kind of accident in the future.
I don't see this in our group. People are thin skinned. They take things personally. People's egos flare. Emotions come to the surface, bla bla bla. It is vastly inferior to the coldly analytical approach taken by the flying community.
For a long time I've tried to figure out why. To this day I can't. For whatever reason, the shooting community would do well to emulate the flying community in this practice.
A case in point. Flying magazine has a popular column called "I learned about flying from that?". It is a kind of write in column where pilots describe something that happened to them where they failed as a pilot. They analyze what they did wrong and what they did right. The editors weigh in, and on the magazines web site, so do other pilots:
http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/i-learned-about-flying
Don
I've spent a lot of money in that store, Carl and his staff have always been helpful and I've NEVER been treated with anything but respect. As others have said, Thursday nights and Saturdays are the crazy busy time. I try to avoid those times when I go there....Personally, I think Carl is a great guy, runs a solid gun store and is a strong 2A supporter (no FUDD creds). I wish more were like him. I'm not alone in that opinion, and that is why the store is always crowded.
It only took 5 pages to find out what happened, sweet! In all honesty, I'm glad nobody was hurt other than some heavily soiled underwear....Wow maybe I should have checked back sooner this thread really went off the rails
From what I was told a guy brought in a kahr he was looking to sell, an employee took it out of the case and it was loaded. Apparently he removed the magazine and emptied the chamber, then put the magazine back in and re chambered a round. Then he had his booger hook on the trigger and fired a round through a display case and it ricocheted into the ceiling.
I hope this gives you guys some more stuff to take about, like how much you hate kahrs and that FS isn't open on Sundays
This is pretty easy to understand if you think about it. There is no MAIA. The legislature is not constantly trying to strip ones pilot license. Also, not having an ND is simpler than flying a plane.
I suspect this is because there are a lot more "self taught" or "home taught" members of the firearms community, which I assume you don't see much of among the flying community. I've found the members of that community who are the most "thin skinned" are often the ones who were taught about guns 40 years ago by their grandfather out on the old farm. While this is a wonderful tradition, I don't think it replaces the formal education process you get with an organized curriculum like the NRA or the military. There's also no continuing education requirement in the firearms community, so you have people who haven't been taught anything new on the subject in 30 years, and after a period of time I think you can get complacent and stuck in their ways.
Also, as Len implied above, there's no one out to get you in the flying community. On the other hand, those of us in the shooting community are all a bunch of paranoid f*cks.
For a long time I've tried to figure out why. To this day I can't. For whatever reason, the shooting community would do well to emulate the flying community in this practice.
Its not about how complex an activity is. Its about the opportunity for screw ups. Its about cutting the accident chain. (you do know what an accident chain is, right?)
So I'm curious. How many of you will call yourself out if you make a safety mistake.
Lets say you forget to check a gun when someone hands it to you? Will you verbally say to those you are with "Shoot, i should have checked that chamber".
Thats the aviation mentality. Fess up and move on.
One other thing. An accident chain is a series of events that were necessary for an accident to occur. In this case the chain looks like this. I'm makeing some assumptions for the sake of this illustration. I don't know that it actually happened this way.
1) whoever brought it to the store failed to check the chamber
2) whoever took it from the sellor failed to check the chamber
3) whoever handed it to a prospective customer failed to check the chamber
4) the prospective customer failed to check the chamber
5) the prospective customer failed to keep his hand out of the trigger guard.
Nobody was killed because the accident chain was broken with a ND into a case.
If someone had been shot the next step would have been
6) the prospective customer failed to keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction.
The point of documenting an accident chain is to see the series of failures in either protocol or the participants compliance with the protocol. If at any point in the first 5 steps anyone had done what they were supposed to do, there would not have been a ND.
Again, this is just an illustration. I don't know the facts of what happened at FS. Nobody does at this point.
Don
Mike - I'm not saying its as useful in the firearms world as it is in aviation. But it is useful.
We're all very familiar with this video. There is an accident chain a mile long here.
[video=youtube_share;Oh1lyMyejpI]http://youtu.be/Oh1lyMyejpI[/video]
As if we're all here to please you. Quit your bitching.wah, wah, wah!
People fail to realize this is a public forum and plenty of LEOs read here too. Some are NOT 2A friendly and will look for any excuse to shut down a gun shop, revoke a LTC on suitability, etc. Don't feed the bears!!
Isnt this shop within travelling distance of a ND to a police dept also? bad ju ju ...
As if we're all here to please you. Quit your bitching.
Frequently, my friend. Frequently.Ha, imagine them shutting down a police dept?
I actually think it speaks to the quality of the shop that a bunch of us THINK WE know what happened and not one word has been said here.
Amusing read here though.