TZCHRIS
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ND at FS?
- Thread starter Coyote Hunter
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JayMcB
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It's crowded right? I am sure Carl is great, and the shop is awesome, but clearly it is dictating the way a lot of people feel about an AD in a crowded store. The reason why the "crowded" comments keep coming up is related to the idea that an AD had the potential to harm someone very easily. Also, I didn't read about this event in the paper or see it on the news, it was brought to this forum. Shit happens. We talk about and share ideas about it. It's about learning from events, and people taking responsibility for thier actions (or unfortunatley thier mistakes). In my opinion, it's the only way to ever have reasonable regulation and laws. The whole "keep it quiet" and "stfu" approach does nothing to help that battle.
daveshrews
NES Member
No, when a cop does it, it's "the gun went off by itself, and the officer has been cleared of any wrongdoing."
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Publicizing it can do NO GOOD! Just like any of us could lose our LTC for "unsuitability" because the chief decides he no longer likes/trusts you, the MA Dealer's License is also just as tenuous and can be revoked by the chief that issued it for no reason whatsoever!
I'm sure that whoever did it and Carl both understand the problem created and will take every step necessary to ensure it doesn't happen again, short of banning guns in the shop!
When I was working a gun show in Foxboro, someone was clearing their gun as they entered the show and had an ND (no barrels of sand either, just let one fly in a crowded gun show)! Shit happens, nobody shut the show down, no SWAT response and everyone carried on. Nancy Snow told me of an incident at the (last?) gun show that GOAL ran years ago. Someone had an ND that flew very close to Nancy and others! NOTE: Both of these NDs happened in venues that were MUCH more crowded than FS!!
NO matter what shop it is, this is best handled internally and not with a huge Internet forum looking for gory details. "If it bleeds, it leads" here too!
Garys
NES Member
Actually if it wasn't for one of the fish wives here on NES, very few people would have known about. There isn't any benefit to the shop or gun owners in general to go on and on about it.
As to ND versus AD, it's not the cops that make that distinction. That whole BS started in the shooting community, no doubt by holier than though bubbe meisters trying to make a point.
As to ND versus AD, it's not the cops that make that distinction. That whole BS started in the shooting community, no doubt by holier than though bubbe meisters trying to make a point.
People fail to realize this is a public forum and plenty of LEOs read here too. Some are NOT 2A friendly and will look for any excuse to shut down a gun shop, revoke a LTC on suitability, etc. Don't feed the bears!!
I suspect this is because there are a lot more "self taught" or "home taught" members of the firearms community, which I assume you don't see much of among the flying community. I've found the members of that community who are the most "thin skinned" are often the ones who were taught about guns 40 years ago by their grandfather out on the old farm. While this is a wonderful tradition, I don't think it replaces the formal education process you get with an organized curriculum like the NRA or the military. There's also no continuing education requirement in the firearms community, so you have people who haven't been taught anything new on the subject in 30 years, and after a period of time I think you can get complacent and stuck in their ways.
Also, as Len implied above, there's no one out to get you in the flying community. On the other hand, those of us in the shooting community are all a bunch of paranoid f*cks.
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I've spent a lot of money in that store, Carl and his staff have always been helpful and I've NEVER been treated with anything but respect. As others have said, Thursday nights and Saturdays are the crazy busy time. I try to avoid those times when I go there....
This is an excellent FS review thread based on a ND that may or may not have happened.
10/10 should be made sticky in the Reloading sub forum or Maine Gun law sub forum to keep in line with all the sense it's making.
Change thread title to "How to make cupcakes out of broken glass in an airplane. "
Un- subbed.
Derp
10/10 should be made sticky in the Reloading sub forum or Maine Gun law sub forum to keep in line with all the sense it's making.
Change thread title to "How to make cupcakes out of broken glass in an airplane. "
Un- subbed.
Derp
Coyote Hunter
NES Member
Wow maybe I should have checked back sooner this thread really went off the rails
From what I was told a guy brought in a kahr he was looking to sell, an employee took it out of the case and it was loaded. Apparently he removed the magazine and emptied the chamber, then put the magazine back in and re chambered a round. Then he had his booger hook on the trigger and fired a round through a display case and it ricocheted into the ceiling.
I hope this gives you guys some more stuff to take about, like how much you hate kahrs and that FS isn't open on Sundays
From what I was told a guy brought in a kahr he was looking to sell, an employee took it out of the case and it was loaded. Apparently he removed the magazine and emptied the chamber, then put the magazine back in and re chambered a round. Then he had his booger hook on the trigger and fired a round through a display case and it ricocheted into the ceiling.
I hope this gives you guys some more stuff to take about, like how much you hate kahrs and that FS isn't open on Sundays
It only took 5 pages to find out what happened, sweet! In all honesty, I'm glad nobody was hurt other than some heavily soiled underwear....
dcmdon
NES Member
This is precisely the attitude I wrote about.
Its not about how complex an activity is. Its about the opportunity for screw ups. Its about cutting the accident chain. (you do know what an accident chain is, right?)
Flying, like shooting is not terribly difficult to do. But like flying it is very unforgiving of errors.
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There are constant ongoing attempts to restrict the flying community. The thing that pilots say (there is a fair amount of cross over) is that they don't have a Second Amendment that they can at least fall back on.
Post 9/11 there was actually talk of disallowing any kind of VFR flight at all. This would require all aircraft to be under control of air traffic control at all times. This would have destroyed general avaiation. Of course, it would not have solved any known problems.
Sound familiar?
One thing about the pilot community is that it is very strongly self regulating. If someone does something stupid and someone else notices, they get told. If they continue to behave that way, a call goes to the FBO at their home airport. There is generally a hesitation to get the government involved. If the guy gets kicked out of his hanger and can't land at any nearby airports, he's out of luck.
I'm not in favor of any kind of governmental requirement for recurrent training, but am very in favor of it becoming a standard way of doing things for ranges and clubs. If you want to be unsafe in the middle of a sand pit, great. If you want to come and stand next to 5 other people while shooting, the private club or privately owned public range has a right to enforce any standards they see fit.
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A -huge- part of it is that in the aviation community, there are no "casual shooters" so to speak. You're either deadly serious about it or you're not flying. The money required to fly (and the regulatory BS) acts as a barrier to entry. So you're dealing strictly with enthusiasts, not guys who bought a plane casually, because no such thing exists for the most part. The shooting community" if you want to call it that, for better or worse, is loaded with a lot of people who only use guns casually. There are a shitload of people who only shoot "trap on sundays" or have a bunch of fudd guns and a couple of handguns and don't shoot frequently. The other thing is, in aviation, is that there are a lot of safety incidents that are not as simple as dusting yourself off and moving on. You can still do a crapload of things that damage the aircraft or violate laws which can get you in hot water pretty quickly. It's not like having an ND in a gun where if you shoot the floor in your house, you don't get hurt, and your gun doesn't blow up, you just clean up the "small" mess and move on. If nobody gets hurt the damage is in a very small "container". You have an incident of negligence, even one that doesn't result in ANY injury, in an aircraft and you might end up with thousands in repairs and possibly legal issues. Aircraft enthusiasts often view safety as paramount because neglecting it can directly impact their ability to fly.
That said there are shooters (and competition realms within shooting) that take safety pretty seriously and fully document safety incidents, but IMHO that's really only a small cross section of gun owners as a whole. IMHO you're quite literally asking too much to get fudds and casuals on board with that philosophy. It would be similar to trying to run a movement to get the goverment to raise or remove highway speed limits in exchange for a dramatically increased level of driver training. The lowest common denominator of american drivers sucks, just like it does among gun owners. You would only ever get that top 20% to think this sort of thing was a good idea. It's perhaps not the best analogy due to the government component (I don't like the government regulating anything, frankly, on a good day its a necessary evil, but it's still evil. ) but you get the idea.
-Mike
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The thing is in shooting generally speaking the accident chain is a lot shorter and less complicated than it is compared to a
lot of aviation accidents. The number of input variables in aviation accidents can be pretty high. With guns its a lot
simpler, and it usually consists of "guy with gun violated rule 1/2/3" (or all the above)- and in a time continuum, it usually happened all at once. There are also a lot of aviation incidents where a pilot deceived themselves into believing something was OK when it wasn't, which lead to a string of other errors, which resulted in a crash or what have you. Gun safety incidents aren't that complicated 99% of the time.
-Mike
dcmdon
NES Member
So I'm curious. How many of you will call yourself out if you make a safety mistake.
Lets say you forget to check a gun when someone hands it to you? Will you verbally say to those you are with "Shoot, i should have checked that chamber".
Thats the aviation mentality. Fess up and move on.
One other thing. An accident chain is a series of events that were necessary for an accident to occur. In this case the chain looks like this. I'm makeing some assumptions for the sake of this illustration. I don't know that it actually happened this way.
1) whoever brought it to the store failed to check the chamber
2) whoever took it from the sellor failed to check the chamber
3) whoever handed it to a prospective customer failed to check the chamber
4) the prospective customer failed to check the chamber
5) the prospective customer failed to keep his hand out of the trigger guard.
Nobody was killed because the accident chain was broken with a ND into a case.
If someone had been shot the next step would have been
6) the prospective customer failed to keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction.
The point of documenting an accident chain is to see the series of failures in either protocol or the participants compliance with the protocol. If at any point in the first 5 steps anyone had done what they were supposed to do, there would not have been a ND.
Again, this is just an illustration. I don't know the facts of what happened at FS. Nobody does at this point.
Don
Mike - I'm not saying its as useful in the firearms world as it is in aviation. But it is useful.
We're all very familiar with this video. There is an accident chain a mile long here.
[video=youtube_share;Oh1lyMyejpI]http://youtu.be/Oh1lyMyejpI[/video]
Lets say you forget to check a gun when someone hands it to you? Will you verbally say to those you are with "Shoot, i should have checked that chamber".
Thats the aviation mentality. Fess up and move on.
One other thing. An accident chain is a series of events that were necessary for an accident to occur. In this case the chain looks like this. I'm makeing some assumptions for the sake of this illustration. I don't know that it actually happened this way.
1) whoever brought it to the store failed to check the chamber
2) whoever took it from the sellor failed to check the chamber
3) whoever handed it to a prospective customer failed to check the chamber
4) the prospective customer failed to check the chamber
5) the prospective customer failed to keep his hand out of the trigger guard.
Nobody was killed because the accident chain was broken with a ND into a case.
If someone had been shot the next step would have been
6) the prospective customer failed to keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction.
The point of documenting an accident chain is to see the series of failures in either protocol or the participants compliance with the protocol. If at any point in the first 5 steps anyone had done what they were supposed to do, there would not have been a ND.
Again, this is just an illustration. I don't know the facts of what happened at FS. Nobody does at this point.
Don
Mike - I'm not saying its as useful in the firearms world as it is in aviation. But it is useful.
We're all very familiar with this video. There is an accident chain a mile long here.
[video=youtube_share;Oh1lyMyejpI]http://youtu.be/Oh1lyMyejpI[/video]
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Unless I was handed one with the slide open , you bet I'm checking to see if it's loaded. It's the basic fundamental of firearms safety. Does everyone check ? No way. But failure to check could end up a fatal mistake and I can say I haven't forgotten once. I consider all guns loaded and I hope some of you double check if you were careless in the past.
And if you're checking trigger pull, holy shit check the ****er at least twice! Wtf!
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I can't believe I just read eighteen pages of crap and the only conformation was "I heard from a friend"... I should have skipped to the end and saved myself some time and brain cells. So when it comes out a pistol was dropped and shattered the glass case someone PM me, thanks in advance. ![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
The crowding issue is easy to avoid just go during the week and early and you'll have their undivided attention, Carl is a stand up guy and runs a good shop.
The crowding issue is easy to avoid just go during the week and early and you'll have their undivided attention, Carl is a stand up guy and runs a good shop.
worst event i have had is going shooting with a buddy who was also licensed we shot for a few hours packed up and went home when dark was falling. He packed up the AR i packed up the hi-point. When I got home I opened the cases to clean them and i always check before cleaning to ensure the gun is clear and what do you know a live round popped out of the AR.. Let me tell you a phone call was made and he felt awful. I made the call so he would know to be more careful at cleanup time, my lesson was never let anyone pack away my guns.
I was there this morning and it was not very crowded at all. Of course I was gone before the lunch crowd.
I'm with ColdDay. I would call myself out on it if I made a mistake. Acknowledging it the only way to fix it. The first thing I do when any gun is handed to me is unload it. Even if the slide/bolt is open. I got in the habit because I was always scared as hell of an AD when I first got my license, so I would always double and triple check to make sure. After a while it just became habit.
I'm with ColdDay. I would call myself out on it if I made a mistake. Acknowledging it the only way to fix it. The first thing I do when any gun is handed to me is unload it. Even if the slide/bolt is open. I got in the habit because I was always scared as hell of an AD when I first got my license, so I would always double and triple check to make sure. After a while it just became habit.
Stop bickering.
Quiet
Banned
Frequently, my friend. Frequently.
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