Natick Mall Firearms K9

Lot of bad info and arm flapping here.

Security going to walk you to your car so you can leave a firearm inside of it and go back to shopping…

Untrained unarmed security with no arrest powers being sent to $100K dollar training courses with a $50K puppy in Texas for months on end with a travel, hotel, rental car and meal stipend to come back and patrol Natick mall…

Dogs searching for gun oil…

I don’t know how some of you sleep at night with the level of pant shitting going on.

I can hear the Jesus Christ kid right now. lol
I actually don't sleep so great, which is why I sometimes tip one or three too many and get a bit exuberant in the evening.
 
If you go to the Mall just take some Bengay with you, and if the dog starts to get close to you rub a little into your hand.
 
Speculation or direct info? Do you know the procedure or are you assuming it? Do you know that is it the oils the dogs sniff and not other odors from firearms and ammo (like gun shot residue - present in small quantities even on reasonably well cleaned handguns)?

Remember, carrying a gun is not evidence of illegal activity (Commonwealth v. Couture) and you are under no obligation to show an LTC to non-LEO even if they are wearing a uniform.

Escort to you car? Time for some fun. I do not want you to have my name, which is why I did not give it. You can follow me to the edge of mall property. I will have a different person, whose name you do not know, pick up my car to preserve my privacy.

As to Dr Grant on off duty - private property owners can choose to give, or not give, any level of deference they wish.
I was delivering to the Braintree Mall and ran into the dog and guard outside, I asked him was the dog smelling for gun powder and he told me "certain gun oils/lubricants" he was not specific on which. Maybe he was lying.
 
I was delivering to the Braintree Mall and ran into the dog and guard outside, I asked him was the dog smelling for gun powder and he told me "certain gun oils/lubricants" he was not specific on which. Maybe he was lying.
Good chance he was lying or had no clue. The dog might have been trained to find perfume.
 
I'm probably in the minority here but I got no problems with Mall Security doing their jobs, it's pretty simple math that it's their property their rules, don't go if your not ok with going unarmed, if it's anything like the hood rat Rockingham Mall your better off not going anyways.

It's like getting all pissed off at the guy at Wal Mart or BJ's asking to see your receipt, they are doing their job.

I'd rather these people work than suck off the system
 
The first thing to ask if you are approached by one of these handlers is "are you a sworn police officer?". That will enable you to make an intelligent decision about how you interact - for example, it is not a crime to refuse to identify yourself, verbally or via paperwork, when a citizen with no LE authority demands you do so. It is also assault if they intentionally touch you in any way absent your consent, unless it is legitimate self defense. If they detect a firearm, or if you choose to answer in the affirmative if they ask, you are under no obligation to produce your LTC.

And what if you say no? Do they tell you to submit to search or leave?
Was thinking the same thing.
Ask are they sworn LE, they say no. Just keep walking, if they touch you its an assault, and if you feel threatened you can defend yourself. I don't know about you but some wanabee operator with his attack dog would have me very concerned for my safety. Once he assaulted me who knows where he's going to take it.
 
Suggested plan if approached:
  • First ask "Are you sworn LE?". If so, request they show your their police ID card. If they are non-police, continue as follows...
  • Say "Nice dog" or "Good boy".
  • Ask what their preferred pronouns are.
  • Turn on your cell phone to record the interaction. Notify the other party you are doing so. Do not obey any order (that they have no authority to give) to turn it off. Remember, MA law requires "non-surreptitious", not "two party consent" for audio recording (and not even that to record police thanks to the first circuit)
  • If they ask tell them "I will not discuss my security procedures with you" or consider "no" if that's the case
  • Do not give them your name. Politely inform them that as private citizens, you are under no obligation to identify yourself to them, and they do not have police authority.
  • If they imply you cannot leave, ask if you are free to leave. If they say "no", ask "what crime are you accusing me of?"
  • If they tell you to leave and escort you out, do not let them touch you. If they do, inform that you do not consent to being touched and their actions meet the Massachusetts General Law definition of assault. Do not disobey an order to leave the premises - that is one of the very few items where they actually have real authority.
  • Do not consent to any pat frisk or search. If they are not police, that is "assault", not "police work".
  • When you leave, walk away from Mall property (perhaps to the Cloverleaf or Sherwood mall) and call an Uber. Come back many hours later for your car wearing different clothes and a hat - they will try to follow you in person or on camera to get your plate and identify you. You do not want to be on a list or reported to your licensing authority for suitability review - especially since the report may not be an accurate description of what happened.
  • Above all be polite, do not raise your voice, use the preferred pronoun of the person(s) you are interacting with, and be sure your body language conveys a calm, non violent demeanor. They key is to do absolutely nothing to violate the law or convey any threat in the interaction.
I think there is a independent (not-LE) company trying to sell this service to shopping malls all over the country. Google has news reports of malls elsewhere in the US doing the doggie thing.
And if they are sworn LE. Why not walk back to your car and leave?
 
I was delivering to the Braintree Mall and ran into the dog and guard outside, I asked him was the dog smelling for gun powder and he told me "certain gun oils/lubricants" he was not specific on which. Maybe he was lying.
If thats true then it sounds like the dog is the smartest one between the handler and trainers.
 
Whoever suggested getting rubbed with gsr and whatever they REALLY sniff for, this.

Organize a mall walking session after shooting, but leave all actual firearms in the car.

Even better, find a sympathetic friend that has no intention of ever getting an LTC and dose THEM with gsr. That way they can't even be found unsuitable
 
And if they are sworn LE. Why not walk back to your car and leave?
Whether they're LE only matters in that real police could arrest you***. The Blart variety HAS NO POWER.

What they can do is order you to leave and if you don't, THEN you're in trouble

** Not for being there with a gun but for disturbing peace or refusing to leave it something.
 
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Dog sniffs for gun powder residue? What if I bring in a pocket full of spent brass? Does the officer have a firearm?
You are assuming that it is a police officer. My bet is that it is a civilian security droid. I doubt that the mall is willing to pay $50-75/hr for a real police officer.
It is not illegal to not notice the sign. It is not illegal to be present in the mall while armed

IF they for ANY reason told you to leave and you don't, then they will arrest or refer you to Natick PD for arrest.

If you leave when asked, you aren't getting arrested, probably. Or not legitimately arrested anyway
If they aren't police, they can't arrest so they would have to call NPD. Follow Rob Boudrie's advice on how to handle the issue (he posted above).
The first thing to ask if you are approached by one of these handlers is "are you a sworn police officer?". That will enable you to make an intelligent decision about how you interact - for example, it is not a crime to refuse to identify yourself, verbally or via paperwork, when a citizen with no LE authority demands you do so. It is also assault if they intentionally touch you in any way absent your consent, unless it is legitimate self defense. If they detect a firearm, or if you choose to answer in the affirmative if they ask, you are under no obligation to produce your LTC.

And what if you say no? Do they tell you to submit to search or leave?
They can't legally search you if they aren't police officers.
Don’t carry when you go there but just before you go rub some gun powder residue and gun oil on your clothes.

Keep the dogs falsely alerting to people without firearms. Make the K9 patrols ineffective.

“Do you have a firearm on you sir?”
“No I do not. Why do you ask?”
Won't work, you'll have all the hassle for nothing.
 
Ok, so after you decline to ID and answer any questions what if they don't ask you to leave, what if they tell you to wait for LEO? Does their suspicion you have a firearm give them cause to attempt to detain you?
What kind of idiot tries to detain someone carrying a gun?
 
I think you missed the part where the mall cops are not sworn police officers. After confirming that with a direct question, the some leverage they have over you is ordering you to leave

It doesn't matter whether you have gsr, gun oils, bad cologne or twin 1911's swinging on your belt. They can't escort you to your car, they can order you to leave. DO that if they tell you to leave.

Imagine the level of authority that a random stranger passing you on the sidewalk has over you. He can't stop you. He can't demand your papers. He can't arrest you. Etc. That is the level of authority the mall staff has over you. EXCEPT they have the right to demand that you leave.
In Massachusetts store security is indeed allowed to put hands on you and detain you if they suspect you of shop lifting. It’s total bullshit, but the fact remains. They do have more authority given to them by law than just a stranger on the street.
 
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In Massachusetts store security is indeed allowed to put hands on you and detain you if they suspect you of shop lifting. It’s total bullshit, but the fact remains. They do have more authority given to them by law than just a stranger on the street.
But putting hands on someone for carrying a firearm in a mall is a huge stretch vs. a shoplifter.
 
I just now realized that you didn’t go to med school. Funny/Sad that I’ve been reading your name as Dr Grant Doherty all this time. I think the beauty in your avatar drew my gaze over there for longer than usual.
I'm guilty of reading it the same..... "Doctor, Doctor.... Doctor..." -Emmitt Fitz Hume, Spies Like Us
 
In Massachusetts store security is indeed allowed to put hands on you and detain you if they suspect you of shop lifting. It’s total bullshit, but the fact remains. They do have more authority given to them by law than just a stranger on the street.

It's not going to end well for anyone if that is tried with me
 
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