Natick Mall Firearms K9

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The first thing to ask if you are approached by one of these handlers is "are you a sworn police officer?". That will enable you to make an intelligent decision about how you interact - for example, it is not a crime to refuse to identify yourself, verbally or via paperwork, when a citizen with no LE authority demands you do so.
I find it hard to believe any basic mouth breathing security company would send a minimum wage worker to Texas for 6 months and pay tens of thousands of dollars to train him or her and a new dog. That’s just not happening for mall security. Maybe for a nuke site or something, but not for Auntie Annie’s Pretzels.

Not much they can do to you unless you’re asked to leave and you refuse. Live your lives people and stop obsessing over the hysterics of idiots.
 

SFC13557

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Remember, this Rule banning firearms is intended to discourage lawful CCW, NOT aimed at gangbangers and criminals.
Just look at the Braintree Mall and recent "Incidents" with it's "minority" shoppers. Way back in the day, 70's/80's/90's, it was very safe because WHY?
I remember taking my daughter to the Cinema there to see Home Alone, it was a mob scene.
 

FalArAk

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Suggested plan if approached:
  • First ask "Are you sworn LE?". If so, request they show your their police ID card. If they are non-police, continue as follows...
  • Say "Nice dog" or "Good boy".
  • Turn on your cell phone to record the interaction. Notify the other party you are doing so. Do not obey any order (that they have no authority to give) to turn it off. Remember, MA law requires "non-surreptitious", not "two party consent" for audio recording (and not even that to record police thanks to the first circuit)
  • If they ask tell them "I will not discuss my security procedures with you" or consider "no" if that's the case
  • Do not give them your name. Politely inform them that as private citizens, you are under no obligation to identify yourself to them, and they do not have police authority.
  • If they imply you cannot leave, ask if you are free to leave. If they say "no", ask "what crime are you accusing me of?"
  • If they tell you to leave and escort you out, do not let them touch you. If they do, inform that you do not consent to being touched and their actions meet the Massachusetts General Law definition of assault. Do not disobey an order to leave the premises - that is one of the very few items where they actually have real authority.
  • Do not consent to any pat frisk or search. If they are not police, that is "assault", not "police work".
  • When you leave, walk away from Mall property (perhaps to the Cloverleaf or Sherwood mall) and call an Uber. Come back many hours later for your car wearing different clothes and a hat - they will try to follow you in person or on camera to get your plate and identify you. You do not want to be on a list or reported to your licensing authority for suitability review - especially since the report may not be an accurate description of what happened.
  • Above all be polite, do not raise your voice, and be sure your body language conveys a calm, non violent demeanor. They key is to do absolutely nothing to violate the law or convey any threat in the interaction.
I think there is a independent (not-LE) company trying to sell this service to shopping malls all over the country.

Damn man, that's a lot to remember.

Do you have a checklist like this for every situation? I would be like " Hold on man, I got a checklist to go through before we proceed.. Am I free to go?"
 

Rat187

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I just got back from a trip to Texas to visit my daughter. Went to Bike week in Galveston with gun toting 250,000 attendees. Gucci bikers, Black bikers, Lawyer bikers, the 'Banditios' 1%er's. My daughters driving her Porsche top down 2 guns underneath my seat. It felt like rerun of TET-68, but The only mayhem was a drunk illegal trucker killing a bunch of people in an electric cart. Open carry at a bar no-one even notices or cares. Loved it.
 

Qwikdraw45

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Verfassungsmäßige Freiheiten sind im Einkaufszentrum Natick verboten. Ihr Recht auf unangemessene Durchsuchung und Beschlagnahme und die zweite Änderung sind bedeutungslos.
Private property, not .gov, so they can infringe.
And why not include drug sniffing dogs since their code of conduct prohibits all things illegal?
And lose most of their high-paying clientele?
 
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Damn man, that's a lot to remember.

Do you have a checklist like this for every situation? I would be like " Hold on man, I got a checklist to go through before we proceed.. Am I free to go?"
 
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I just got back from a trip to Texas to visit my daughter. Went to Bike week in Galveston with gun toting 250,000 attendees. Gucci bikers, Black bikers, Lawyer bikers, the 'Banditios' 1%er's. My daughters driving her Porsche top down 2 guns underneath my seat. It felt like rerun of TET-68, but The only mayhem was a drunk illegal trucker killing a bunch of people in an electric cart. Open carry at a bar no-one even notices or cares. Loved it.
Interesting considering the TX 51% law (felony)
 

Poxbox

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Dog sniffs for gun powder residue? What if I bring in a pocket full of spent brass? Does the officer have a firearm?
Then you better have your LTC on you when the police arrive. My understanding.... That will end up being called an ammunition component and falls under the same category as if it were a live round. "Everything is illegal in Massachusetts".
 

jek

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Examples of specific activities that are prohibited include but are not limited to:
  • Disruptive profanity, vulgar or threatening language
  • Unnecessarily blocking walkways, roadways or storefronts
  • Running, horseplay or disorderly conduct of any nature
  • Excessive loitering
  • Operating unauthorized recreational and/or personal transportation devices in the shopping center
  • No firearms or illegal weapons
Interesting wording. If no firearms or illegal weapons are prohibited, isn't it essentially saying you can have firearms and illegal weapons. Glad I don't shop there to test the theory.
 
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It is not illegal to not notice the sign. It is not illegal to be present in the mall while armed

IF they for ANY reason told you to leave and you don't, then they will arrest or refer you to Natick PD for arrest.

If you leave when asked, you aren't getting arrested, probably. Or not legitimately arrested anyway

No security guard is arresting me.... I think the handcuffing shop lifting law.. still stands. But all that nonsense of special police and special deputies has ended with police "reform". I doubt any mall has any "sworn guards" anymore and are encouraged to go hands off. Shoppers world (old one) had armed security as I recall and had Framingham special police powers this is the 80s.. not present.

Case and point malls are thug/crime magnets always have and always will be.

Armed security and "gun dogs" almost make sense. Unarmed security and unarmed gun dog handlers is laughable..

Atleast General Growth or who every owns the natick mall is "trying". Before covid I would go to that mall with the ex when it wasn't Christmas time and I noticed maybe TWO security guards for the whole place.... No visible off duty police.

I hate that section of Natick/Framingham.. traffic and very poor development planning..

I have found one worse area.. Concord, NC near the speedway the thugs flock from Charlotte to the Simon mall there.. people have been shot and killed there..since southern thugs just pop of rounds randomly sometimes for no reason...it's a gun free zone.. it gets so bad and full of thugs at times.. they "close the mall". Simon doesn't even try to do mall security usually have to be bullied by the communities to do the right thing and hire off duty police who show up with a leather cardboard or kydex zero retention holster of their choice with a baby Glock. No spare mag. a radio.. cuffs and no other gear including a vest. In NC...a NO gun sign means no guns per the law...

I expect MA to try to change this law..
 
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The dogs are trained to sniff out gun oils.
If you have an ltc they will escort you out to your vehicle, You can then either leave your firearm In your car or leave the mall.
If you do not have an ltc the police will be brought in.
 

namedpipes

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The dogs are trained to sniff out gun oils.
If you have an ltc they will escort you out to your vehicle, You can then either leave your firearm In your car or leave the mall.
If you do not have an ltc the police will be brought in.
I think you missed the part where the mall cops are not sworn police officers. After confirming that with a direct question, the some leverage they have over you is ordering you to leave

It doesn't matter whether you have gsr, gun oils, bad cologne or twin 1911's swinging on your belt. They can't escort you to your car, they can order you to leave. DO that if they tell you to leave.

Imagine the level of authority that a random stranger passing you on the sidewalk has over you. He can't stop you. He can't demand your papers. He can't arrest you. Etc. That is the level of authority the mall staff has over you. EXCEPT they have the right to demand that you leave.
 

drgrant

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forget about the fact this is completely stupid, What if it is retired LEO or off duty and carrying and not one of the peasant masses?

Lol what difference does that make? They not immune from trespass standard carry bans.

As far as private property carry bans are concerned LE are still considered peons just like the rest of us wrt off dury/not official business.
 
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The dogs are trained to sniff out gun oils.
If you have an ltc they will escort you out to your vehicle, You can then either leave your firearm In your car or leave the mall.
If you do not have an ltc the police will be brought in.
Speculation or direct info? Do you know the procedure or are you assuming it? Do you know that is it the oils the dogs sniff and not other odors from firearms and ammo (like gun shot residue - present in small quantities even on reasonably well cleaned handguns)?

Remember, carrying a gun is not evidence of illegal activity (Commonwealth v. Couture) and you are under no obligation to show an LTC to non-LEO even if they are wearing a uniform.

Escort to you car? Time for some fun. I do not want you to have my name, which is why I did not give it. You can follow me to the edge of mall property. I will have a different person, whose name you do not know, pick up my car to preserve my privacy.

As to Dr Grant on off duty - private property owners can choose to give, or not give, any level of deference they wish.
 
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Ron Jablonski

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Ok, so after you decline to ID and answer any questions what if they don't ask you to leave, what if they tell you to wait for LEO? Does their suspicion you have a firearm give them cause to attempt to detain you?
 

M1911

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Ok, so after you decline to ID and answer any questions what if they don't ask you to leave, what if they tell you to wait for LEO? Does their suspicion you have a firearm give them cause to attempt to detain you?
They can't detain you. If they try to, that's a crime (assault, assault & battery, etc.).
 

Ron Jablonski

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The dogs are trained to sniff out gun oils.
If you have an ltc they will escort you out to your vehicle, You can then either leave your firearm In your car or leave the mall.
If you do not have an ltc the police will be brought in.
Wouldn't powder residue make more sense? I'll bet you more people walk around with dirty guns that all oiled up and clean. Especially the types of morons that pop off in malls.
 
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