Every story like this I think how stupid is that we don't have CCW reciprocity. Then I think of Scott Brown. Then I get angry.
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My story.....Rhode Island traffic stop.....1 am
- Thread starter Ryan9896
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richc
NES Member
I've gotta say... this story does not pass the stink test IMHO.
Me thinks that the OP may not be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Me thinks there's been some fabrication.
It just does not add up IMHO.
And to the OP, sorry if this offends you. But I call'em like I see'em.
Best,
Rich
Me thinks that the OP may not be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Me thinks there's been some fabrication.
It just does not add up IMHO.
And to the OP, sorry if this offends you. But I call'em like I see'em.
Best,
Rich
joeendris
Banned
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+1
Exactly this. No elaboration, no conversation. No need to let them get a word over you. They ask for "X", give them "X", then shut thy trap.
Refusing to provide a driver license in MA is arrestable misdemeanor. You actually acknowledge that when you sign for your license. If people ever read the fine print it would blow their mind as to what they consent to
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
ochmude
Marine Veteran
Reminds me of a funny story. Back when I was on active duty we were doing some training one day that involved checking out a bunch of humvees from the motorpool. Checking out a humvee involved filling out a vehicle inspection checklist and a signing a bunch of forms. Well, the battalion career planner (recruiter for people that are already enlisted) had gotten together with the master sergeant that ran the motorpool to play a little practical joke on us. He slipped re-enlistment paperwork in with the vehicle checkout forms, and a bunch of us pretty much ended up re-enlisting because no one ever reads any of the forms they sign when they check out a vehicle.
Yeah I think there is common misconception that cops will do whatever they want. It's simply not true. If Officer Joe Smith continually does illegal search and seizures, the courts notice. Judges do not tolerate it. His Chief, also, notices. Suspensions, station assignments, termination can come of it.
MA courts are weigh HEAVILY on defendants and their constitutional rights as they should
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If that was in Ma they would have called the SWAT team. then Devil Partick would have made a speech about how some terrorist plot had been thwarted.![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
When you do dumb things like that, you deserve to get beaten up.
That was the dumbest thing I have ever heard of anyone doing. Carrying a concealed or loaded weapon in the cabin of a vehicle in a state where you are not licensed and either not a.) bothering to know the law or b.) know it and disregarding it?
Those cops were going off shift and not interested in booking your ass.
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There is case law in some states and maybe the feds too where the length of the stop can turn it into a seizure. I am betting this is the source of his statement but I don't know of anything specifying 20 minutes.
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There is no bright-line defining what is unreasonable. One court held that a 90 minute wait for the drug sniffing dogs to arrive was too long, but they would not say where that line was.
Another note: In Massachusetts, the police cannot issue an exit order based solely on a traffic stop. They must articulate some reason they were unsafe or uneasy. Many other states (maybe all - I don't know), the police can order you out of the car simply because they have stopped you for a traffic violation.
Can't they order you to exit in order to perform a field sobriety test?
I'd consider changing/deleting a few facts and/or numbers. If someone with the ability to do so were to decide that these cops deserved to be bent over for not prosecuting a firearms violations, a little research coupled with those details might make it easier for them to do so. They were extremely cool considering how things have been where firearms are concerned. Give them a buffer.
KBCraig
NES Member
I don't have the cites at hand, but I believe that federal case law (different cases) holds that 20 minutes is reasonable to make someone wait, and 90 minutes is excessive. For a warrant, for a dog, whatever. Other than that, they can only hold a driver for the length of time it reasonably takes to deal with the reason for the stop, or any new issues that develop as a result of the stop.
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I agree with everything you are saying here in general, but question this last part. If he did not consent, then they searched anyway, let's say because they deemed him "jumpy and nervous" so they suspected cocaine or something which gave them probable cause for a search, are you saying that the lawyer could get the evidence tossed (gun), and he would get it back with no charges? I would find this very hard to believe if it went down like I described since they would have met the requirement of probable cause for a legal search.
First, the lawyer has a chance if you don't consent. How good of a chance? I'm not a lawyer, I don't know. I have a hard time believing that someone being nervous is probable cause for a search. Everyone is nervous when they get stopped by a cop, but that doesn't mean that every cop has probable cause to search.
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I get what you are saying, but I would definitely worry about gun charge even if they questioned the validity of the search at that point. Even if they did toss it on insufficient grounds, would he automatically get his gun returned to him at that point?
ochmude
Marine Veteran
I'm unfamiliar with that case law, and would be very interested in reading it if you can find it. Otherwise, that's exactly what I have been taught. Due diligence is the name of the game. I can't take one minute longer than necessary to complete my investigation. Put another way, though, I am permitted to take as long as necessary to complete my investigation, but not one minute longer. The lawyer that taught us at the academy provided the following example. If you're on a traffic stop and it takes 6 hours for a K9 to show up because they were all tied up with a search and rescue operation, that is not an unlawful detention. If it takes 10 minutes for a K9 to show up because the K9 agent stopped at Circle K for a coffee on the way over and there was a line, that is an unlawful detention.
I think this was more to do with his actions prior to the stop. The act of stuffing a gun under your seat is not easy to hide.
Exactly-
S/he must have reason to believe you're impaired. S/he usually makes that determination while you're fumbling for your license and registration. Also, you do not have to perform field sobriety tests. Again, this is Massachusetts law. I don't know about other states. I understand in California, they'll strap you down and take your blood if you refuse. In Mass, they can't force you to take a breathalyzer, and they cannot mention in court that you refused. They WILL yank your license for refusing, but you may skate on the DUI.
RichM
Retired Army Veteran
A quick related question about locking the car on exit...
Police car pulls out of his hidey hole... Check my speed... "Uh, oh!" Check that seat belt is fastened, watch to see if he really wants me. He pulls in behind me, and I start preparing to be stopped. Pull my wallet out of my back pocket and lay it on my lap or beside me. Lights come on, signal and pull over at the widest part of the breakdown lane (not on the narrow bridge!). Reach over and open glove box, grab folder with registration, lay it on the passenger seat, lower window 1/2 way, lock the doors with the button. Hands at 10 & 2, he finishes running my plate and comes to the window.
So, if I don't want them to open the car without my consent, how do I get the window up as I exit the car? I can manually unlock the driver's door when I reach for the handle, and manually push the lock closed again as soon as I've cracked the door. If I turned off the car and dropped the keys into my pocket as soon as I lower the window, I can't close the window when I exit the car. If I close the window as I exit the car, the keys are still in the ignition. Some cars won't let you lock the doors with the keys in the ignition.
If the doors are locked and the window 1/2 way lowered, is the car a closed and locked container that could only be searched if I was arrested? I don't want to go through too many machinations while exiting the car that will cause the officer to say something like "Leave the keys in the car" or hold out his hands for the keys or to prevent me from putting them into my pocket. I'm betting that as I exit the car, he will take a step back so that he can't prevent me from closing the locked door.
I've got broad shoulders; I can take criticisms of my mental preparations!![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
Police car pulls out of his hidey hole... Check my speed... "Uh, oh!" Check that seat belt is fastened, watch to see if he really wants me. He pulls in behind me, and I start preparing to be stopped. Pull my wallet out of my back pocket and lay it on my lap or beside me. Lights come on, signal and pull over at the widest part of the breakdown lane (not on the narrow bridge!). Reach over and open glove box, grab folder with registration, lay it on the passenger seat, lower window 1/2 way, lock the doors with the button. Hands at 10 & 2, he finishes running my plate and comes to the window.
So, if I don't want them to open the car without my consent, how do I get the window up as I exit the car? I can manually unlock the driver's door when I reach for the handle, and manually push the lock closed again as soon as I've cracked the door. If I turned off the car and dropped the keys into my pocket as soon as I lower the window, I can't close the window when I exit the car. If I close the window as I exit the car, the keys are still in the ignition. Some cars won't let you lock the doors with the keys in the ignition.
If the doors are locked and the window 1/2 way lowered, is the car a closed and locked container that could only be searched if I was arrested? I don't want to go through too many machinations while exiting the car that will cause the officer to say something like "Leave the keys in the car" or hold out his hands for the keys or to prevent me from putting them into my pocket. I'm betting that as I exit the car, he will take a step back so that he can't prevent me from closing the locked door.
I've got broad shoulders; I can take criticisms of my mental preparations!
