My "Greencard" question for the CLEO...

[snowjoker]

So I was in renewing my LTC the other day and while I was sitting BSing with the officer doing the licenses I figured I would ask about THE greencard for my Machine Gun License, and whether the Chiefy would sign on the dotted line. ( I mean I don't have the $300 a year to drop on it anyway but if he said yes, I would find the money.) I told him I have my C&R FFl and have had my LTC A for almost 20yrs....He looked at me and laughed....then he said forget about it...He will not sign those for anyone.

He went on to tell me that there are only two in our town and that the Cpt. had one and the Lt. had the other (Both Dept Armorers). He also went on to tell me about that whole thing that was in the papers a while back about the Cpt. having issued a MGL to one of the other Lts and the Chiefy had a fit and almost fired both the Cpt and the Lt for it.

So this was what he told me that the Cpt told him. "The person applying needs to be a "Bonafide Collector" and there is no Definition in the law about what that is. So until they tell me who I have to give it to, I won't."

Guess I won't get one til I move out of MA.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The law (CMR actually) DOES define what a bonafide collector is!

Ron Glidden personally saw to it that a C&R FFL was defined as meeting that requirement!

 

[drgrant]

( I mean I don't have the $300 a year to drop on it anyway but if he said yes, I would find the money.)

$300 a year? I thought the machinegun license was $100, and that it had
the same term as an LTC.

-Mike

 

[snowjoker]

Hmmm, Len, where do I find it?

I was sure it was $300, maybe I am wrong...

 

[Pilgrim]

"The person applying needs to be a "Bona fide Collector"

You can't be any more 'bona fide' than having a C&R.

Perhaps you should have described yourself as being a federally licensed collector of firearms.

 

[snowjoker]

Didn't I read somewhere that there is a way around getting the chief to sign it?

 

[drgrant]

Didn't I read somewhere that there is a way around getting the chief to sign it?

No, that's only for the actual transfer of the NFA item itself. You can use a
Trust or Corporation entity to acquire NFA items.... problem is in MA that
you still need a (state) license to possess a machine gun. Those licenses
can only be granted by the Chief, just like an LTC.

Note that, an MG license has nothing to do with SBRs, SBS, AOW,
etc. And Supressors can only be owned by people who have a fed
manufacturing license. (at least as far as MA law goes.... )

-Mike

 

[securityboy]

Just a couple points.
~The Mass License to possess MG's costs the same and "lasts" as long as a regular LTC....
~"Bona Fide Collector" yes C&R license is good enough to qualify for that, BUT this license is completely discretionary, even if you meet any/all requirements they still don't have to issue the license.
~As mentioned above there are ways to get around the CLEO sig to actually purchase an MG under the federal regulations, the problem is to possess it in Mass you need the "green card"...

http://www.hansonshoot.com

 

[Chris]

Note that, an MG license has nothing to do with SBRs, SBS, AOW, etc. And Supressors can only be owned by people who have a fed manufacturing license.

Short Barreled Rifles (SBR) are legal on an FID as long as it isn't high capacity, otherwise legal on LTC . You just need the proper BATF tax stamp and purchase it via an NFA dealer, or obtain the proper BATF authorization and tax stamp to build your own. (ie, rebarrel)

Short Barreled Shotguns (SBS) would only be legal if the shotgun was manufactured specifically as an SBS and not converted from a longer gun. MA laws specifically state the criteria as being "made from a shotgun". However, this is one of those places I would NOT want to have to educate the courts as to what the difference is.

Suppressors are banned outright unless you are a firearms manufacturer, authorized agent of the Mass Criminal Justice Training Council, or a sworn officer acting on official business under the direct authorization of the CLEO or the Colonel of the State Police.

Any Other Weapon (AOW) covers two different types. Firearms and non-firearms. For most firearms, again the standard LTC and FID definitions will apply as far as MA is concerned. Yes, you can plunk down 10k and get one of them cool 20mm Vulcan magazine fed 6' rifles if you abide by the federal requirements and have just an FID. I have no idea where you would be allowed to shoot such a beast, but you could get one like this:

For AOWs that are NOT firearms, you could run into other issues. Most of these have some kind of explosive element (grenades, rockets, etc) which would run afoul of various MA laws regarding stuff that goes BOOM. I don't really know the details. In some cases, you may be required to get a "Certificate of Competency for Cannon Firing" from the Fire Marshal under 527 CMR 22.04.1.

In any case, please note that most of these federally classified arms have a boatload of restrictions and procedures that must be followed in the proper storage, operation, and transport.

IANAL, but reading the laws, this is what I read.

 

[securityboy]

Any Other Weapon (AOW) covers two different types. Firearms and non-firearms. For most firearms, again the standard LTC and FID definitions will apply as far as MA is concerned. Yes, you can plunk down 10k and get one of them cool 20mm Vulcan magazine fed 6' rifles if you abide by the federal requirements and have just an FID. I have no idea where you would be allowed to shoot such a beast, but you could get one like this:

For AOWs that are NOT firearms, you could run into other issues. Most of these have some kind of explosive element (grenades, rockets, etc) which would run afoul of various MA laws regarding stuff that goes BOOM. I don't really know the details. In some cases, you may be required to get a "Certificate of Competency for Cannon Firing" from the Fire Marshal under 527 CMR 22.04.1.

Just some minor corrections here. What you are talking about right there are Destructive Devices, not AOW's.

Anything with a bore over .50 is a Destructive device (except certain sporting arms, most notably would be most [but not all] 12 gauge shotguns), ie. modern cannons, morters, grenade launchers etc. As are the explosive ammunion for such. So for example an M203 is a Destructive device, if you had the regular chalk practice round for it those would not be, BUT if you did manage to come across an HE round it in and of itself would be a DD.

AOW's, are most often the unusual things, such as pen guns, cane guns, etc, but also includes "shotgun pistols" or pistols w/ forward pistol grips, such as an SP89 w/ K grip. AOW's can also be combination of items, one of those little berretta 22 pistols by itself is not an AOW but put it in one of those shoot though holsters and that combination is an AOW (as are "oporational briefcases")...

 

[Emoto]

Just a couple points.
~The Mass License to possess MG's costs the same and "lasts" as long as a regular LTC....
~"Bona Fide Collector" yes C&R license is good enough to qualify for that, BUT this license is completely discretionary, even if you meet any/all requirements they still don't have to issue the license.
~As mentioned above there are ways to get around the CLEO sig to actually purchase an MG under the federal regulations, the problem is to possess it in Mass you need the "green card"...

http://www.hansonshoot.com

What sort of things have you seen on the MA mg licenses under reasons for issue or restrictions?

As I understand it, the MA mg license is for possession only, right? So, assuming one might some day possess a machine gun of some type, how does one legally take it to a range, both from a paperwork standpoint, and in terms of any legally required cases or locks?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Hmmm, Len, where do I find it?

I was sure it was $300, maybe I am wrong...

501 CMR 6.00 - Machine Gun License - Bona Fide Collectors of Firearms (p. 139 in Chief Glidden's book 9th Edition), also MGL Ch. 140 S. 131 (o)

Fees for MG License - (Class E) - $100/6 yrs. (p. 166 in Chief Glidden's book 9th Edition) - This is in a chart of fees and expiration dates.

More specifics are in Ron's "Notes" at the end of each section in his book (hence the value of his book).

 

[securityboy]

What sort of things have you seen on the MA mg licenses under reasons for issue or restrictions?

As I understand it, the MA mg license is for possession only, right? So, assuming one might some day possess a machine gun of some type, how does one legally take it to a range, both from a paperwork standpoint, and in terms of any legally required cases or locks?

Basicly I have only ever seen "bona fide collector" or similar (ie, collector, firearms collector, ect) that was all pre computerization, so I would assume most now say the standard "bona fide collector". Well I did actually see one for A.L.P.but about a week after the guy got it, the PD called him told hime it was a clerical error and gave him a "bona fide collector"...I'd guees there are a handfull out there for PD instructors but I have never seen one (but its not like I ask my MG friends to show me thier license)

As for transportation in Mass, same rules apply as say some one with a "resticted" LTC. Locked in cases or in trunk, ect. As a general rule it is always best to keep a copy of the Form 4 w/ the gun...

 

[Chris]

Just some minor corrections here. What you are talking about right there are Destructive Devices, not AOW's.

AOW's, are most often the unusual things, such as pen guns, cane guns, etc, but also includes "shotgun pistols" or pistols w/ forward pistol grips, such as an SP89 w/ K grip. AOW's can also be combination of items, one of those little berretta 22 pistols by itself is not an AOW but put it in one of those shoot though holsters and that combination is an AOW (as are "oporational briefcases")...

Good point. Forgot about those gadget guns. Anything that doesn't look like a gun is illegal in MA. (Cane Guns, Briefcases, etc.) MGL C 140 S 131N

 

[Len-2A Training]

According to Ron's book, the only thing that is supposed to be put in the "restrictions" space is "Collector" (for non-police firearms instructors).

You can expect some onerous requirements from your local chief if he grants you a mg license. They are likely to be MUCH more restrictive than what MGLs calls for! <fair warning>

I do NOT know if this is correct or not, but I recall (many years ago) being told by fellow shooters that if you possess a mg, paying that tax and filing the Form 4 entitles the BATFE to search your house at any time for any reason, without a warrant. It might be an "old shooter's tale" or it could be true, but I for one would NOT be willing to give up those rights just for the privilege of possessing a mg!

 

[securityboy]

I do NOT know if this is correct or not, but I recall (many years ago) being told by fellow shooters that if you possess a mg, paying that tax and filing the Form 4 entitles the BATFE to search your house at any time for any reason, without a warrant. It might be an "old shooter's tale" or it could be true, but I for one would NOT be willing to give up those rights just for the privilege of possessing a mg!

That is complete BS. (one of 1000's of rumors about MG ownership).

Here's whats real funny about this, how would ATF know where to look? Unless you move out of state there is no requirement to notify ATF of a move. Further what are they searching for???The MG they know you have????

 

[LoginName]

I do NOT know if this is correct or not, but I recall (many years ago) being told by fellow shooters that if you possess a mg, paying that tax and filing the Form 4 entitles the BATFE to search your house at any time for any reason, without a warrant. It might be an "old shooter's tale" or it could be true, but I for one would NOT be willing to give up those rights just for the privilege of possessing a mg!

That's a myth.

As to one who is neither a FFL nor SOT, but only owns weapons regulated under the National Firearms Act, the law seems clear, but practice is a little murky. ATF may only compel you to show an agent upon request the registration paperwork, that is the Form 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or whatever else might have been used to register the weapon. See 26 USC sec. 5841(e). They do not have any right to compel you to show them the weapon. However they apparently (I have no first hand knowledge) take the position that they can compel one to show ATF the weapon upon request, even if the owner has no FFL. As always the Fourth amendment applies, and ATF may not enter your home or other place of storage of the NFA weapon, nor seize the weapon, without a warrant, or without falling under an exception the Supreme Court has created to the operation of the Fourth amendment. They should also need a warrant to compel a non-FFL holder to show them the weapon, and I would insist upon that, myself.

http://www.fullautofun.homestead.com/page36.html

 

[drgrant]

Another thing I would add to the whole NFA thing, is I doubt that BATFE
is going to come knocking randomly.....

The NFRTR is -huge-... huge as in thousands and thousands of
guns. Unless your MG was involved in a crime somehow, I doubt
they would come knocking.

The other thing that seems apparent to me, is that ATF agents don't even
have the NFRTR "on tap" they actually have to file paperwork with the
NFA branch to conduct a search in the NFRTR for names, etc. (I know this, because
I've seen actual photocopies of the forms used by ATF agents to request this info from
the NFA branch.) I guess what I'm getting at, is they'd already have to be pissed
off at you for something else before your NFA ownership even becomes relevant.

The only downside to NFA ownership is if the laws change and they
ban NFA/MG's from public ownership completely... then they basically have a
laundry list of houses to raid... although the reality of that happening
is minimal.... last thing the ATF wants is thousands of ruby ridge
incidents on their hands; if that type of thing happened often enough it
could basically destroy their power base. A lot of "heat" was put on the
DOJ after the Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents.

-Mike