My first reloads! and some questions

[WanMan99]

In looking at the picture of the finished rounds, I would increase the crimp a little bit more. I use a roll crimp on my revolver loads (.38/.357) that you can see the case edge curl inwards (just a bit) into the cannelure. When testing new loads in the revolver I measure OAL of the unfired rounds in the cylinder to see if there is any movement in the bullet seating from the recoil. Just don't go crazy with crimping as it can lead to over pressure.

 

[01SVTvert]

OAL of a loaded cartridge has nothing to do with the length of the brass. It varies due to bullet inconsistency and/or press inconsistency, meaning you.

+100. Lnl needs a consistent motion every time. Give it a shove on the last of the upstroke to make sure all primers seat. Consistent downstroke will help tons with the oal. Run a piece of brass in every station when starting. Make sure the shellplate is tightened down thoroughly.

 

[EddieCoyle]

So both my hornady 7th and lyman cast call for SPM primers on the 357 mag and SP on the 38sp.

My question is if you substitute SP when a SPM is called for can you have ignition problems that could cause dangerouse presure spikes. For lack of a correct term a double preasure spike?
My lack of trying to relay this so please be patient

If you have a load that calls for a SPM primer and you use a SP. Could this cause a incomplete combustion of the power effectively leaving a chunk of the un burned powder to compress behind the bullet only to have a slight second ignition of the remaining powder once preasure builds? On the idea of the rifle loads that use fillers and result in " chamber ringing" ?

could this be even worse when using a dense powder that doesnt fill the case ?

Not with a revolver. With slow pistol powders and a revolver, if the manual calls for a SPM primer and instead you use a SP, you will get inconsistent ignition, inconsistent pressure, inconsistent velocity, and occasionally even squibs.

To get a complete consistent burn, you need a strong crimp, a charge weight above the minimum, and if the load calls for it, a magnum primer. The powders that do best with magnum primers include 2400, W296, H110, Lil Gun, IMR-4227, and sometimes AA9. Longer skinnier cartridges are more likely to need a magnum primer than a shorter, fat cartridge. In other words, you are more likely to need a magnum primer with the .357 and .460 Magnums than you would be with the .44 or .500 Magnum.

ETA: These powders need pressure and heat to undergo a complete burn. You have to have both - without sufficient initial pressure, the temperature stays too low. A strong crimp along with a sufficient length of the bullet inside the case combine to retain the bullet in the case an instant longer than a weak crimp and shallow seating depth, which allows the pressure to build up to the proper level. A magnum primer jump starts the process with a more explosive spark.

The reason why a magnum revolver is different is that as soon as the bullet clears the cylinder and uncovers the cylinder gap, the pressure drops. If everything isn't fully rolling by then, your ammo will suck. It won't develop unsafe pressure, it will just be very inconsistent.

 

[DW357]

In looking at the picture of the finished rounds, I would increase the crimp a little bit more. I use a roll crimp on my revolver loads (.38/.357) that you can see the case edge curl inwards (just a bit) into the cannelure. When testing new loads in the revolver I measure OAL of the unfired rounds in the cylinder to see if there is any movement in the bullet seating from the recoil. Just don't go crazy with crimping as it can lead to over pressure.

I added the Lee factory crimp die and it made a perfect crimp, almost identical to a factory load. Still going to play around with that more. But you can easily see the crimp rolled into the cannelure. I'll upload photos later. I figured if I can see the crimp rolled into the cannelure like factory rounds, then it should be pretty good as long as I have a decent charge (above minimum).

Good call measuring OAL with the unfired rounds, I'll definitely try that out.

 

[DW357]

+100. Lnl needs a consistent motion every time. Give it a shove on the last of the upstroke to make sure all primers seat. Consistent downstroke will help tons with the oal. Run a piece of brass in every station when starting. Make sure the shellplate is tightened down thoroughly.

Good call, I'm still trying to fine tune my motions. I did notice some of my inconsistent OALs were when I didn't have brass in every station (was just being overly cautious). Then I realized I should brass in every station so I can keep practicing my motion and get a good OAL as well as a consistent powder drop.

And I did find myself with probably 4 out of 50 rounds loaded that I wasn't seating the primers all the way and knew I needed to be more consistent with the downstroke.

Thanks for the great advice guys! This is exactly the info I've been wanting to hear from others.

 

[01SVTvert]

E Coyle has a lnl and a ton of reloading experience. Listen and learn from the man.

I have only had mine a couple years but consistency in everything, including your motions will help make consistent ammo. Make sure you have a sturdy bench that doesn't allow the press to move. I ran a bunch of graphite from a tube through mine to get the powder drop slicked up. I also dump the first few drops back into the hopper. Figure the powder has to settle to get consistory throws.

Good luck. It's a great hobby that increases your range time in the long run.

 

[DW357]

E Coyle has a lnl and a ton of reloading experience. Listen and learn from the man.

I have only had mine a couple years but consistency in everything, including your motions will help make consistent ammo. Make sure you have a sturdy bench that doesn't allow the press to move. I ran a bunch of graphite from a tube through mine to get the powder drop slicked up. I also dump the first few drops back into the hopper. Figure the powder has to settle to get consistory throws.

Good luck. It's a great hobby that increases your range time in the long run.

Yes definitely. I took his class back in January or February at Blue Northern and it answered a lot of questions I had.

I had to run a bunch of test charges to get it to throw consistent charges. But now it's +/- 0.1 grains. Although it does leak powder after throwing the charge and lowering the ram. I checked the powder bushing funnel in the drop tube and it is oriented correctly. Does yours drop a few bits of powder?

 

[DW357]

I'd like to mimic Federal AE factory loads which are loaded to 1240 fps (barrel length I'm not sure) I believe. The recoil is just about as much as I'd like after shooting 50-100 rounds. So I think I might pick up a chronograph. And to get an idea on my consistency. This one has decent reviews:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001BR3364/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1408839612&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40

I made 50 rounds today at 14.2 gr and a firmer roll crimp. Very accurate and clean. Cases ejected just fine too. Shot them in my GP100 and Henry lever action. Hit milk jugs offhand 2 out of 6 shots with the revolver and hit them everytime with the Henry. All at the 120 yard backstop. I'd say that's good enough for government work.

 

[DW357]

Just bought the Hornady powder drain insert, a $7 drawstring laundry bag to use to cover my press, and some long tweezers/forceps as recommended by EC to help clean the powder hopper.

 

[mac1911]

I have the shooting crony you linked. It has worked well for me. I think if you shop around you might find that model a little cheaper. It can be fickle with the lighting especially indoors. The light shields get brittle in a short time. Mine all began to crack after a year or so.... I do not get to crazy with mine I dont have the button switch to go through the functions. I write down my 10 shots then use the paper sheets they have in the instructions to do th av,SD, high, low ect ect

PS I have the F1 master with remote display

 

[DW357]

I have the shooting crony you linked. It has worked well for me. I think if you shop around you might find that model a little cheaper. It can be fickle with the lighting especially indoors. The light shields get brittle in a short time. Mine all began to crack after a year or so.... I do not get to crazy with mine I dont have the button switch to go through the functions. I write down my 10 shots then use the paper sheets they have in the instructions to do th av,SD, high, low ect ect

Yeah I don't need anything fancy. Don't really want to drop a lot of $. I'll do some searching to find it cheaper. Thanks.

 

[milktree]

You really need to use MAGNUM primers in 357mag. Regular primers may not ignite the powder properly/completely.

Finally, you are right to use the primers that are specified in the reloading manual. Some powders need magnum primers, most don't.

I started my .357s exactly the way he did: 158gr Zero JHP bullets, Alliant 2400 powder, CCI primers; using a recipe I got from Alliant.


As a test I did some with 500 (regular) and some with 550 (magnum) primers.

The primers made zero difference. The velocities were the same, and the consistency was the same. They were all smoky and had a lot of unburned powder.

When I increased the load to 14.3 gr they burned cleanly and didn't have any unburned powder, still with the Alliant specified CCI500 non-magnum primer.

 

[Steve Marshall]

I once reloaded my .357 with the floor sweepings of unburned powder and reused primers w/ ground up match heads. It went bang. I r satisfied.

Lefty.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I started my .357s exactly the way he did: 158gr Zero JHP bullets, Alliant 2400 powder, CCI primers; using a recipe I got from Alliant.


As a test I did some with 500 (regular) and some with 550 (magnum) primers.

The primers made zero difference. The velocities were the same, and the consistency was the same. They were all smoky and had a lot of unburned powder.

When I increased the load to 14.3 gr they burned cleanly and didn't have any unburned powder, still with the Alliant specified CCI500 non-magnum primer.

I did the same thing a bunch of times and it didn't work.

My point is that if you look up data and find that most sources are telling you one thing, and one source tells you something different -which happens to be what you want to hear- there probably a reason for it.

 

[milktree]

Reloading, like most endeavors, is one that the more you do it and the more you learn, the less you know.

I have no explanation for why my results did what they did, other than, "Moar better!", which is hardly scientific.

I still don't know of any repeatable way to measure crimp.

 

[DW357]

Reloading, like most endeavors, is one that the more you do it and the more you learn, the less you know.

I have no explanation for why my results did what they did, other than, "Moar better!", which is hardly scientific.

I still don't know of any repeatable way to measure crimp.

I think it's easier to measure the crimp if you crimp in a separate station using the Lee FCD (at least with 357 magnum or other calibers requiring a roll crimp). When I was using the Hornady seating/crimping die, no matter how far I screwed the die into the press, I never could see a nice roll crimp into the cannelure. In fact I bulged a case before I could visually see a crimp.

I then added the Lee FCD and only used the Hornady to seat the bullet and I could quickly see the roll crimp as I carefully screwed the FCD into the press. I used a pencil to mark how far I was screwing it in after it first touches the casemouth. Seems to work great for me. I know some people don't like the FCD or to crimp in a separate station but works for me. Not sure if I'll really need it for when I start reloading 38 spl or 9mm. Just my $0.02 and 3 days of reloading experience lol. I'm in no way suggesting what I said is a fact and will work everytime for everyone loading every caliber.

 

[milktree]

I think it's easier to measure the crimp if you crimp in a separate station using the Lee FCD (at least with 357 magnum or other calibers requiring a roll crimp). When I was using the Hornady seating/crimping die, no matter how far I screwed the die into the press, I never could see a nice roll crimp into the cannelure. In fact I bulged a case before I could visually see a crimp.

I then added the Lee FCD and only used the Hornady to seat the bullet and I could quickly see the roll crimp as I carefully screwed the FCD into the press. I used a pencil to mark how far I was screwing it in after it first touches the casemouth. Seems to work great for me. I know some people don't like the FCD or to crimp in a separate station but works for me. Not sure if I'll really need it for when I start reloading 38 spl or 9mm. Just my $0.02 and 3 days of reloading experience lol. I'm in no way suggesting what I said is a fact and will work everytime for everyone loading every caliber.

I use a Dillon 550, so the forth stage is a dedicated crimp station.

But... What do the numbers look like?

Nobody ever says, "0.003" crimp", it's always, "no crimp", or "light crimp", or "medium crimp", or "heavy crimp", or sometimes "roll crimp", but nothing that actually tells you what that means.

 

[DW357]

I use a Dillon 550, so the forth stage is a dedicated crimp station.

But... What do the numbers look like?

Nobody ever says, "0.003" crimp", it's always, "no crimp", or "light crimp", or "medium crimp", or "heavy crimp", or sometimes "roll crimp", but nothing that actually tells you what that means.

Oh okay.

Yeah I agree, it would be nice if there were numbers/measurements associated with crimp like there is with OAL, charge weights etc. Just have to rely on visually checking the crimp I guess.

 

[DW357]

Wow reloading is so addictive. I worked up a load today using 14.7 grains and beefed up my crimp and it shoots very accurately, cases eject fine, and recoil is about the same as factory Federal ammo which is what I was trying to accomplish.

I can definitely notice a difference in accuracy with my reloads compared to factory ammo. I loaded up 6 of mine shot them at 50 ft then loaded 6 Federal rounds and my groups were much tighter with the reloads. It's a great feeling knowing I made them and it's costing me about $10 a box compared to $25+ for factory ammo.

Only thing I need to fix is the powder flinging out of the cases after I drop the powder and index the shellplate as I lower the ram. I think I need to mess around with pawls.

I noticed that the hopper now has a nice coating of graphite from the powder and all I have to do now is give it a few taps and cycle the measure a couple times and it's pretty spotless after that.

 

[noddaduma]

2400 is a very small-grained powder. It's going to be messy no matter what you do.

Keep your finger on the case as it moves to the next station. That'll keep it from flinging out.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Nobody ever says, "0.003" crimp", it's always, "no crimp", or "light crimp", or "medium crimp", or "heavy crimp", or sometimes "roll crimp", but nothing that actually tells you what that means.

Since both the length of the case and the thickness of the brass would have an impact on crimp measurement, specifying a crimp measurement would be hard to do unless you sorted your brass by headstamp and trimmed it to a consistent length.

I measured a bunch of brass from different headstamps. It ranged from 0.008" to 0,014" thick depending on who made it. A quick check on case length for a handful of .357 cases showed a minimum of 1.278" and a max of 1.289". If you were to measure a 0.003" crimp on a long thick case, you'd get a lot less crimp on a short thin one with the same die setup.

Even if you did sort it, you'd have to specify a different number for every thickness/length combination.

 

[DW357]

2400 is a very small-grained powder. It's going to be messy no matter what you do.

Keep your finger on the case as it moves to the next station. That'll keep it from flinging out.

Yeah I was wondering if I really could prevent that or not. At 14.7 grains, the case is pretty close to 3/4 full and the powder is like a fine ground pepper.

Good idea on holding the case, didn't think of something so simple like that.

 

[milktree]

Since both the length of the case and the thickness of the brass would have an impact on crimp measurement, specifying a crimp measurement would be hard to do unless you sorted your brass by headstamp and trimmed it to a consistent length.

I measured a bunch of brass from different headstamps. It ranged from 0.008" to 0,014" thick depending on who made it. A quick check on case length for a handful of .357 cases showed a minimum of 1.278" and a max of 1.289". If you were to measure a 0.003" crimp on a long thick case, you'd get a lot less crimp on a short thin one with the same die setup.

Even if you did sort it, you'd have to specify a different number for every thickness/length combination.

Yea, I know it's a tricky problem for all of those reasons.

I imagine that there's got to be *some* standard, or at least the language to describe such standard.

What do Winchester or CCI or Remington do? They must have some way of measuring if their ammunition is up to specifications.

Assuming you're starting with high-school-physics world materials and machinery (everything is perfectly flat, plumb, level, round, consistent, etc). is it even reasonable to say something like, "crimp specification is between -0.002" and -0.004" from pre-crimp dimensions"?

I'm not sure if that terminology even makes sense for a roll crimp.

 

[noddaduma]

If there were a specification calling out a crimp, it should be called out as something that you could measure and referenced from a datum. For example, case OD at the crimp. In any case, I would be surprised to see crimp called out on a SAAMI drawing since the amount of crimp you apply can vary for so many reasons as EddieCoyle indicates.

 

[mac1911]

Yeah I was wondering if I really could prevent that or not. At 14.7 grains, the case is pretty close to 3/4 full and the powder is like a fine ground pepper.

Good idea on holding the case, didn't think of something so simple like that.

I have yet to buy lnl but have checked out a few and the powder spill complaint is very common. It happens when the shell plate settle into the next position.
I see it as the portion where the plate settles into its detents. I have not been able to get into a press yet. I have a few thoughts though......
With out knowing how the detent works....... I would try weaker spring if its ball type detent. Or even a slighter larger or small ball? Maybe polish out the detent area. Like I said though I have yet to get a chance to dig into one. Maybe shimsxof some sort? What you need to do is some how slow the detents from snapping into position vs a smooth locking ? I have not dug to deep yet.
You may find a solution with ultimate reloader seems to do a lot with hornady presses.

 

[EddieCoyle]

The detents are tiny and built in to the shellplates.

I used an L-N-L for years and found the best way to prevent powder from leaving the case is to modify your technique so that you slow the indexing down just as the shellplate arrives at the detents. It takes a little practice/experience, but you can do it.

The .357 as you describe isn't even close to the worst case either. .45 ACP, .44 Magnum, .500 Mag, and even 9mm are 'worse', but the right technique goes a long way.

 

[DW357]

The detents are tiny and built in to the shellplates.

I used an L-N-L for years and found the best way to prevent powder from leaving the case is to modify your technique so that you slow the indexing down just as the shellplate arrives at the detents. It takes a little practice/experience, but you can do it.

The .357 as you describe isn't even close to the worst case either. .45 ACP, .44 Magnum, .500 Mag, and even 9mm are 'worse', but the right technique goes a long way.

Yeah I tried slowing down the index and it seemed to work for most of the cases but a few would still fling powder out. As you said, I just need to practice it more.

Well I plan to start reloading 9mm this weekend, hopefully it won't be as bad.

Slightly off topic, are these $80 chronographs decent? Or do I need to bite the bullet and spend more money? Has decent reviews

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001BR3364/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1409247881&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40

I'm only reloading 9mm and 38/357 but probably 30-06 eventually when I shoot all 400 rounds of Greek 30-06 ammo for the Garand. So I don't think I'll be using a chronograph all that much so I figured get a cheaper one maybe.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Also make sure your pawls are adjusted so that they're controlling the shellplate movement all the way to the detents instead of disengaging early and 'dropping' the plate off into the detents.

I haven't used that chrony. I have the Competition Electronics one that usually cost about $120 when not on sale.

 

[DW357]

Also make sure your pawls are adjusted so that they're controlling the shellplate movement all the way to the detents instead of disengaging early and 'dropping' the plate off into the detents.

I haven't used that chrony. I have the Competition Electronics one that usually cost about $120 when not on sale.

I think the pawls could be part of the problem because the shellplate really seems to snap into place or 'drop' after I've lowered the ram after dropping the powder. I need to mess around with that to see if I can fix or help minimize the amount of cases flinging powder.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I think the pawls could be part of the problem because the shellplate really seems to snap into place or 'drop' after I've lowered the ram after dropping the powder. I need to mess around with that to see if I can fix or help minimize the amount of cases flinging powder.

Go easy when you do. 1/8 of a turn on the pawl retaining screw may be all that it needs.