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my first 308 loads
- Thread starter wiskie762
- Start date
Honestly, I thought CFE223 burns too fast for 308 but it is not the fasted 308 recommended powder. Yet somehow its loads generate higher pressures. (I have edited my original post). I must admit I'm a bit negatively biased against CFE223 for anything but plinking loads in 223/5.56. I do occasionally load with it (223 only) but haven't seen great accuracy from it.
Per mac1911's above post, double check your loads. Based on your reply, doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your sizing. Did you check all the loaded cartridges? Sometimes mistakes can be made on a couple and not the rest- not that I've ever done that LOL. Mostly it sounds like an overpressure problem. Scale problem could be the culprit. Do you have a calibration weight to check it? Another reason to start at the minimum- gives some buffer for weighing errors.
Per mac1911's above post, double check your loads. Based on your reply, doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your sizing. Did you check all the loaded cartridges? Sometimes mistakes can be made on a couple and not the rest- not that I've ever done that LOL. Mostly it sounds like an overpressure problem. Scale problem could be the culprit. Do you have a calibration weight to check it? Another reason to start at the minimum- gives some buffer for weighing errors.
CFE223 shot extremely shitty from my rifle. YMMV. get a chrono for not to guess ever of how your loads shoot. 175gr SMK should be loaded for a 2450-2650fps with whatever charge of whatever powder it takes for your barrel to group nicely. then shooting the ladder watch for the condition of the primer, print of the bolt and if buffer smacks all the way back in the tube - usual signs of the overpressure. as you do not say what gun you got and how long the barrel is - charge limits are not known.
.308 test of CFE223 vs TAC - 168gr ELD Hornady
So, harvard today was little to no fun, all ranges are covered with solid ice and when it started to melt i was barely able to drive out in my p-car. so did not do any work at 300yds, only ran those load tests of my .308 at a 100yds. it is a rather mediocre barrel - an 18" wilson combat fluted...
www.northeastshooters.com
i do not understand those apps - as the charge and pressure depends upon the gun.
like there below - one file is for
Firearm Used: Colt AR-15A2 HBAR
Barrel Length: 20"
and other is for
Firearm Used: Remington 600
Barrel Length: 24"
all loads data and max amounts are not even remotely close. all those 'apps' as i get it skip those 'details' for a simplicity.
a same 6.5CM load i use differs by 200fps if shot from bergara compared to a 20" AR.
all guns are different, and if brass has no bolt prints, primers sits in fine - it can be loaded well above those arbitrarily maxes. of course, you should then be careful not to put it into somebody else`s gun.
Published load data should be based on actual pressure testing. Or sammi spec special pressure testing device.i do not understand those apps - as the charge and pressure depends upon the gun.
like there below - one file is for
Firearm Used: Colt AR-15A2 HBAR
Barrel Length: 20"
and other is for
Firearm Used: Remington 600
Barrel Length: 24"
all loads data and max amounts are not even remotely close. all those 'apps' as i get it skip those 'details' for a simplicity.
a same 6.5CM load i use differs by 200fps if shot from bergara compared to a 20" AR.
all guns are different, and if brass has no bolt prints, primers sits in fine - it can be loaded well above those arbitrarily maxes. of course, you should then be careful not to put it into somebody else`s gun.
There will always be minor differences in pressure and velocity.
The sierra app above is just the electronic version of the 6th Addition
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i do not understand those apps - as the charge and pressure depends upon the gun.
all loads data and max amounts are not even remotely close. all those 'apps' as i get it skip those 'details' for a simplicity.
all guns are different, and if brass has no bolt prints, primers sits in fine - it can be loaded well above those arbitrarily maxes. of course, you should then be careful not to put it into somebody else`s gun.
You always seem like a good guy and perhaps there's something I'm not getting from your statements, but what I'm reading needs a NO! response.
For sure charges and pressures can be different gun by gun but the max loads are usually developed in a standard test chamber & barrel. IMHO it applies to everyone but especially in the context of a thread for new reloaders the max should NEVER be exceeded. I reload for almost everything I shoot except 22LR and 9mm (why to both, LOL) and I never go over max.
I can't speak for every app but for any of them based on cartridge and/or powder producers' data, their max's should be respected.
NO, you should NOT consider the max's arbitrary and experiment with loads beyond the published max. Even if you don't see the usual pressure signs in the brass or primer, why go there? If the caliber you have isn't getting the job done at known safe loads, get another caliber. If you have not found accurate loads for a gun within the published safe load range, it's not worth risking a Darwin to think you will magically hit the right node above published max safe load. Once the primers start walking out, either your brass is toast or you need to back off on the load- or both.
you did not look at the docs i posted.
for the same 80gr SMK:
AR version:
Varget 21.3 22.2 23.1 23.6 24.0
bolt version:
Varget 21.7 22.6 23.5 24.4 25.3
last right number is claimed to be 'max'. it is not.
or looking at the 140gr EDL match hornady 6.5CM loads -
POWDER 2400 2500 2600 2650 2700 2750 2800
Alliant RL-15 33.5 gr. 35.3 gr. 37.1 gr. 37.9 gr.
Alliant RL-17 35.3 gr. 37.0 gr. 38.7 gr. 39.6 gr. 40.4 gr. 41.3 gr.
the de-facto standard prs load that also works for me very well is the 41.8gr of reloder16 - gives and 2800fps speed. no overpressure signs.
and if you actually go via different path and pull reloder16 data directly - for different brands of 140gr bullets it gives max loads numbers from 42.6gr to 44gr. in my rifle overload signs began at 42.5gr - but i do not need anything more than 41.8-42gr as it gives good speed and great accuracy right there.
Yep, read out of context plus others were referring to manufacturer load data. You (and anyone else) should be good to go at Alliant's published max- assuming that max is reached in steps to ensure it's OK for a specific rifle.
definitely so - the papers from powder manufacturer are usually the point of truth there, but as i looked at all that even there i saw inconsistencies, data may not match with bullets manufacturers papers, both ways, and sometimes the caliber in question - like that 6.5CM may not even be listed in data for powder when the bullet manual lists such a powder.
i go with what my common sense tells me - rely on the chrono and set the charge to follow the optimal muzzle speed for a given projectile, as close to published max as possible - like for a 140gr 6.5cm it is 2800fps, same for 69gr .223, 2650 for a 168gr .308, etc.
anyway, as long as it is about .308 -
and from my 18" rifle the 45gr cfe223 charge was doing 2542fps, ES47 SD12, with a, hmm... 4MOA spread - 168gr ELD hornady.
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thoise numbers are max for the manufactures testing in the particular rifle they are testing in? What we dont know is did they actually modify those test rifles with pressure transducers ? I am doubtful. Sierra is probably basing their loads even max loads on some sort of "performance" standard. Rather than sammi spec pressure test barrel.
if a bolt gun can take the 25 gr charge we can only speculate the AR can handle the chamber pressure as the 5.56 chamber is rated to a higher chamber pressure or is it.
Not to mention the different methods and placements of the transducers.
Heck what is there CIP , SAAMI , NATO EPVAT which places the transducer at the case mouth vs saami places it more in the chamber area. Then we Have US SCATP
Now as far as the Varget Sierra data the AR max might be so because we start flirting with port pressure on the AR. Then all that Dwell Time, lock up , un lock of the bolt and so on. Again we do not know how Sierra came up with this max data
Every load manual I read says to about the same thing a load of powder in a case some where between 90-105% load density will often give you your best accuracy with in the pressure limits of the powder and cartridge. Then the manuals always say the same thing . Starting load and work up or 5-10% less than max and watch for pressure signs.
Quick loads Program is not a tell all do all system but I can say as far as what I see out of my rifle and what it out puts has been very helpful and darn near spot on with velocity. Especially with my cast loads. Saves me time going to the range and seeing what happens with a new load or bullet change.
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oh and ad to the fun
Sierra AR is a 20" 1:7 twist barrel The Bolt gun is a 24" 1:14 twist barrel ONE in FOURTEEN what the f*** Sierra those 80 grain bullets must have went down range like a egg shaped bowling ball. Did each rifle have the same chamber cut...... I doubt it. Any one remember Dean?
Dont know how much twist will really effect pressure but im sure it has a impact on velocity be it minor. Yet when talking pushing max loads minor changes can get serious quickly
So to everyone take it slow head the warnings and be careful as you get to published maxed loads no matter what powder or rifle.
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dramatically.
we look here at loads with heavy rifle projectiles using slow burning powder. pressure is a factor of the total time duration of bullet movement in the barrel.
in an AR you at least have a gas port to drain some gas, in a bolt - a 24" or longer it is nothing to release it.
so it has to be done smartly and carefully. like i said - the R16 in my bergara shows both flattened primer and a distinct print of the bolt on brass on anything above 42gr, at 42.5gr being kinda critical. R16 manual says max load limit at almost 44gr - i think it would be a rather stupid thing to do based on what i saw. not to mention that a 2800 exit speed for a 140gr projectile is more than adequate for a good supersonic distance on 6.5CM. you just need to know where to stop. while still ignoring an idiotic number of max load of 37.5gr given in a hornady manual.
but, i do not think doing the experiment with a suggested max of 44gr R16 in a my particular 24" bergara rifle would be smart. but the 18" AR10 would probably eat it fine.
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and again, the only point i had here in response to a first message OP sent - the tests of any custom loads without a chronometer are not worth the time and, actually, also can be quite dangerous. based exactly on what i wrote in the post above.
and it does not have to be super expensive to get the job done.
Amazon product ASIN B07FTJYQ9ZView: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FTJYQ9Z
and it does not have to be super expensive to get the job done.
Amazon product ASIN B07FTJYQ9ZView: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FTJYQ9Z
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I think a lot gets skewed in the testing.
Do SAMMI spec pressure test chambers have a throat and lead. Are all bullet manufactures tested? Do they account for jump? IDK
Is 223/556 specs accounting for a larger than “mag length” 80-95 grain bullet?
For Full House loads I try to find powders that will come as close to max load density and the velocity Im looking for with in safety margins .
Thats not my normal routine as I tend to load for low recoil and accuracy for 200 yards. 90% of the time.
Plus my cast loads in platforms that traditionally dont run cast
SKS, AK,AR ,M1 , M1a
Gidge
NES Member
Yes.
