Muzzleloading Recommendations?? (in MA)

[KMM696]

So, after reading the CVA Op-Ed thread, I realized that the unused muzzleloader I have is, I think, a CVA. I'll check when I get home...but until then:

What would y'all recommend for muzzleloaders? My focus is on muzzleloaders that work within the MA Fish and Wildlife Regs for deer, but I'd be interested to hear 'free state' or 'don't know about F&W regs, but..' recommendations too. I have no experience with any of them, other than buying a coworkers raffle win CVA (I think) 2 years ago, and not trying it yet.

Thanks

 

[scouter-rick]

I think I mentioned in the other thread, and will gladly repeat it here.

I can't say enogh good things about Thompson Center.... check them out.

http://www.tcarms.com/

-Rick

 

[firtree]

Mass has pretty loose regs for muzzle loaders. If you just want a hunting tool,
any good quality inline with a decent scope will be fine. The ranges here tend
to be very short, so you don't need stunning precision (IMHO). My knight will
easily do under 2" at 100 yds with the right bullet/powder combination, but
4" would be acceptable as well. Low power scopes with good low light performance would also help.

My biggest complaint with MA hunting is finding land to hunt without 200 other bozos! Good luck with that one...

 

[KMM696]

Is the only muzzleloader restriction in MA against "hinge action" except during shotgun season, then?

Not as bad as I had expected....

My biggest complaint with MA hunting is finding land to hunt without 200 other bozos! Good luck with that one...

I might have a few suggestions on that, if you ever want to try zone 4N or 4S. It's not real crowded out here....

Thanks

 

[ephemeratta]

Is the only muzzleloader restriction in MA against "hinge action" except during shotgun season, then?

Not as bad as I had expected....




I might have a few suggestions on that, if you ever want to try zone 4N or 4S. It's not real crowded out here....

Thanks

My T/C Omega is great. No scope and shoots just about 2" on 100gr trip7 pellets.
You can use a hinge action like the T/C Triumph during shotgun season.
Then there's the savage 10ml which can also use smokeless(not a legal BP sub though) which is a sort of bolt action.

The T/C and Knight(disc) are the only one's I've shot that I'd trust and I'd probably would stay away from HR/NEF as well.

 

[machocheese]

.

 

[pupchow]

re: powder

Would not the Savage meet that powder requirement? I assume the intent of the language is to disuade one from using some powder "cocktail" of sorts.

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/dfwpdf/dfwab01.pdf

Muzzleloaders - During muzzleloader deer season hunters may use only shoulder fired muzzleloaders .44 caliber to .775 caliber; barrel length 8" or more with only one barrel operational. Inline ignition systems are permitted providing rifle loads from the muzzle. Hinge action (breakopen) muzzleloaders are NOT permitted. Single projectile only (no buckshot). Sabot rounds, 209 primers, and scopes are legal. Powder limited to black powder or approved substitutes. Firearm is considered unloaded when cap or pan powder is removed. Primitive Firearms Stamp required. Archers may hunt during the muzzleloader firearms season but must purchase a Primitive Firearms Stamp and wear at least 500 square inches of hunter orange on head, back, and chest.

During shot gun deer season hunters may use shoulder fired muzzleloaders not larger than .775 caliber, including modern muzzleloaders, muzzleloaders with telescopic sights, hinge action muzzleloaders and muzzleloaders using sabot rounds. Firearm is considered unloaded when cap or pan powder is removed.

___________________________________________________

I too will be looking for a muzzleloader which meets the "Primative Firearms" definition, i.e., not hinge action (breakopen). Is there a short list of rifles to consider?

 

[firtree]

I would focus on Knight and TC. If you hit the online forums, like Modern Muzzleloader, you can
get some amazing deals. I bought a friend a lightly used Knight Disc for under 150 on that forum.

 

[hunter46spring]

I love my T/C Omega with a fluted barrel and a laminate thumbhole stock. I have it topped with a Nikon Omega scope. I shoot 150gr of 777 pellets and a 250gr T/C Super Glide sabot bullet. At 100yds from a bench I can get 3 shots to touch and I was amazed that the claims of the omega scope were accurate once I was sighted in it was just a matter of adjusting to the desired range and I was, basically, right on.

I have used cheaper muzzleloaders in the past and you get what you pay for. They are not accurate, not reliable, and feel cheaply made.

They are not hinged at the breech so they are legal to hunt with during muzzle loader season. I almost bought a T/C Encore muzzle loader until I discoverd that the hinged breech style muzzle loader were only legal during shotgun season

 

[KMM696]

Well, since my muzzleloader was a CVA, and has exceeded my risk tolerance level for 'classes of firearms I'm completely unfamiliar with', I started looking.

Found a company selling '07 Knight Wolverine rifles, $123 shipped.

Yep - ordered one. The Omega looked good, but isn't in the budget right now, and with 2 unfinished AR builds probably won't be in the budget any time soon. If I get hooked on shooting BP rifles, I'm sure I'll try a T/C at some point. For now, I'll try the starter rifle.

 

[firtree]

Randy Wakeman's take (FWIW):


The Economy Choice: The Knight Wolverine 209

The Knight LK-93 has been a popular choice for over ten years now, with the
same basic action as Tony Knight's "original modern inline," the MK-85. The
Wolverine was the first Knight to have barrel and receiver made from one
block of steel, an integral design now found in all Knight Rifles.


The Wolverine 209 continues on quite nimbly today, augmented by Knight's
full red plastic jacket that weatherproofs the action and reduces blowback.
Current Wolverines offer the same "factory adjustable for free triggers" found
on the most expensive Knights, with a array of configurations very few
muzzleloaders can match: thumbhole, camo, youth, and even left-handed
solid synthetic stocks, .45 or .50 caliber, and either 22" or 26" blued or
stainless Green Mountain barrels.


It has Knight's sub 2-1/2" accuracy guarantee, though most shoot far better
out of the box, and less than 1 MOA is not rare. Ian McMurchy's extensive
tests showed 1.33 to 1.53 inch average five shot group sizes.


The street prices vary from around $199 to $299. This gun proves that you
need not spend a lot of cash to have a reliable, weatherproof modern
muzzleloader with a great trigger, backed by a strong USA company with
excellent customer support.


For all the reasons mentioned, there is no reason to settle for less than the
Knight Wolverine 209, an all-American classic. Some feel that despite its
affordable pricing, you aren't settling for less of anything at all, and I can't
argue with that.

 

[KMM696]

Randy Wakeman's take (FWIW):


The Economy Choice: The Knight Wolverine 209

That review had a lot to do with me buying one - the rest of his site was good reading, too!

 

[dbhn]

Well, since my muzzleloader was a CVA, and has exceeded my risk tolerance level for 'classes of firearms I'm completely unfamiliar with', I started looking.

Found a company selling '07 Knight Wolverine rifles, $123 shipped.

Yep - ordered one. The Omega looked good, but isn't in the budget right now, and with 2 unfinished AR builds probably won't be in the budget any time soon. If I get hooked on shooting BP rifles, I'm sure I'll try a T/C at some point. For now, I'll try the starter rifle.

Nice deal. Let us know how you like it? Is it drilled for a scope?

 

[nutzack1001]

"Well, since my muzzleloader was a CVA, and has exceeded my risk tolerance level for 'classes of firearms I'm completely unfamiliar with', I started looking."

What model CVA is it?

My personal recommendation for a muzzleloader would be traditional flint or percussion. Personally I'm not a fan of the newer style inline so called "muzzleloaders"; I'll probably get flamed for saying it but those are not muzzleloaders at all no matter what they are sold as. There are still plenty of companies making decent traditional fixed sighted muzzleloaders at reasonable prices out there. Just my .02. I'm a traditionalist after all when it comes to these things. I've competed with mine, hunted with mine, and personally I feel there is something said for hunting with a older style rifle than modern ones.

 

[KMM696]

"Well, since my muzzleloader was a CVA, and has exceeded my risk tolerance level for 'classes of firearms I'm completely unfamiliar with', I started looking."

What model CVA is it?

My personal recommendation for a muzzleloader would be traditional flint or percussion. Personally I'm not a fan of the newer style inline so called "muzzleloaders"; I'll probably get flamed for saying it but those are not muzzleloaders at all no matter what they are sold as. There are still plenty of companies making decent traditional fixed sighted muzzleloaders at reasonable prices out there. Just my .02. I'm a traditionalist after all when it comes to these things. I've competed with mine, hunted with mine, and personally I feel there is something said for hunting with a older style rifle than modern ones.

I couldn't find an exact match to mine (2 or 3 model years ago) on the CVA site, but it's action looks just like the Buckhorn - different stock and sights, though.

I can certainly understand the traditionalist point of view - I just don't feel that way about muzzleloaders. Not yet, anyway. There are other aspects of shooting where tradition does play a part for me, but I don't know enough about muzzleloading (yet) to develop an appreciation for it's traditions. My route into it was looking through the abstracts and seeing 2 more weeks of deer hunting. Will it develop? Maybe, we'll see.

How well do the traditional designs work for a lefty shooter?

 

[nutzack1001]

KMM696,

Totally understand your point of view. Everyone has their own opinions on firearms and what aspects of it you get into. Traditional designs work well for lefty shooters if you can find one. A member of my club was on a "quest" for the perfect left handed muzzleloader, he eventually found one but it took a while. Either way you choose welcome to what us BP Shooters refer to as the "dark side". I started out with one rifle, now I have 15, Black Powder is an addiction.

 

[dvajda]

I have the T/C Omega with stainless fluted barrel and Realtree camouflage thumbhole stock. It is super super nice, the stock has to be held to be believed, feels extremely natural and is contoured perfectly. The whole rifle is extremely light. I got the T/C camouflage scope base and rings, and mounted the camouflage Nikon Omega scope, made for the T/C Omega. Great combination, all the camouflage lines up nice, and the BDC reticle matches many of the loads used for T/C. Even if it doesn't, you can adjust the magnification on the scope to match your load for different ranges, pretty neat.

Great setup, got my first deer with this, while deer was moving and I was standing. The stock trigger for this rifle is excellent, needs no adjustment (and I'm very picky about my triggers). You will be pleased. Not the cheapest rig, but this rifle will last you a lifetime and you won't need another muzzleloader ever.

 

[dvajda]

Also, check one of the previous threads here discussing the problems with CVA barrel manufacturing, proofing, and the related injuries and lawsuits. Go with T/C.

 

[KMM696]

Nice deal. Let us know how you like it? Is it drilled for a scope?

I believe it is, but not 100% on that yet - Knight, Millett and Leupold all list mounts for that model, but the ad didn't mention it. I'll know soon enough - I ordered it this morning around 8:00, and came home from work to a UPS tracking number they emailed me. So far, I'm impressed!

 

[firtree]

Honestly, I own a Knight Disc Elite and I like their products, but their mounts
are crap. I would stick to the scope and mount manufacturers for that.

 

[KMM696]

Honestly, I own a Knight Disc Elite and I like their products, but their mounts
are crap. I would stick to the scope and mount manufacturers for that.

Thanks- that's good to know. I don't imagine these are particularly easy on scopes or mounts.

 

[MassMark]

I had a customer come in to have his T/C Omega mounted with a Nikon Omega scope. He brought his own mount he got at Midway called DedNutz. It's a really nice single piece mount. I laser bore-sighted it for him and asked him to please let me know how everything worked. The day before muzzleloading season, he brought in a Shoot-N-See with a 5-shot group. Three were touching in a chevron group at 3pm in the 9-ring. The fourth shot was 6pm in the 8-ring and the 5th was just about DedNutz...

 

[ephemeratta]

re: powder

Would not the Savage meet that powder requirement? I assume the intent of the language is to disuade one from using some powder "cocktail" of sorts.

[Powder limited to black powder or approved substitutes.

The Savage would. I think I might have misspoke though. I just had a conversation about this real recent and was told Mass goes by NMLRA or something for what they consider an approved BP sub, and, it's not considered to be legit. However, smokeless is the 'ultimate' substitute by definition.

I could be very wrong on this though, so, someone like JDubois who knows reg's cold might be able to comment and cite something.

KMM696, nice pickup. Hope it works out well for ya.

 

[SAV]

I fell into the hinge-action (breajopen) trap when I bought a MDM Bushwacka. Liked the simplicity of the gun, figured it good for short work, was scoped.

Borrowed a Remington 700 in .50cal, synthetic stock, 3-9X scope, 209 primer, easy to clean, that I didn't know even existed. Blasted a can a couple times at 50 yards, hope to practice some more with it.

Heard Cabellas is having a bargain on something that is being discontinued.

 

[KMM696]

ephemeratta - You've got it right with the NMLRA rules listing the acceptable powder substitutes. It does seem to apply only during the primitive firearms season, I guess it's okay during shotgun season. I couldn't find a copy of the NMLRA regs online - they sell copies on their website.

CMR 321 3.02(4)

"Beginning the third Monday after Thanksgiving and ending on December 31, all days inclusive, deer may be hunted only by means of a primitive firearm using a single lead projectile, or by means of a bow and arrow. Black powder (or synthetic substances such as "pyrodex" which are approved for competitive muzzle-loading meets by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association) is the only powder to be used during this season. "

 

[trophygrl]

i have a T/C omega and i love it... i would recommend it to anyone.

 

[ephemeratta]

ephemeratta - You've got it right with the NMLRA rules listing the acceptable powder substitutes. It does seem to apply only during the primitive firearms season, I guess it's okay during shotgun season. I couldn't find a copy of the NMLRA regs online - they sell copies on their website.

CMR 321 3.02(4)

"Beginning the third Monday after Thanksgiving and ending on December 31, all days inclusive, deer may be hunted only by means of a primitive firearm using a single lead projectile, or by means of a bow and arrow. Black powder (or synthetic substances such as "pyrodex" which are approved for competitive muzzle-loading meets by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association) is the only powder to be used during this season. "

Good catch. Thanks for the cite. I was schooled on this by an old-timer/ traditionalist and half the info slipped out the other ear.

Thanks again and good luck with your new pick-up. I hope it works out well for ya.

 

[pupchow]

Yes, thanks for that clarification with regard to powder. Looks like the TC Omega is on my very short list, now that the Savage is off it. Cabela's has some Omega rifles in their "bargain cave."

 

[KMM696]

The Big Brown Truck dropped off the Knight Wolverine 50-209 I ordered from Ye Olde Archery Shoppe. Nice rifle. Came with scope mounts installed, is drilled and tapped for iron sights, but the sights are not included, had the standard bag of tools with it, Green Mountain barrel according to the manual. I like the size with that 22" barrel, the trigger is perhaps not target quality, but very nice. I like it! That, and it's not a CVA so I can get that little voice saying "Your rifle is about to blow up" out of my head. I don't like that little voice, even when I know it might not be correct - I like the other two that say "Buy more ammo" and "You need another rifle" better.

Anyway, it was $123 shipped, I ordered on the 7th and it was on my steps the 12th. I can't find my camera, which is starting to concern me, but the Wolverine looks just like this, if you removed the iron sights and added 2 piece Weaver style scope mounts. It is their 2007 model, and I don't think you can beat that price.

Now I need powder and bullets - 209s I have!! Oh, and a scope, rings....back to Google!

 

[ephemeratta]

Congratulations.
That's a funny thing about the sights and scope mounts... it's usually the other way around. Glad you got a setup that quiets that little voice.

I'd like to see a range report on this bad boy with whatever load setup you put through it.

Again, congrats. Looks to be a great deal.