Muzzleloader shipped to Mass

[Tackdriver VillenTactical]

Can an inline ML be shipped to a Mass residence or does it need to go through a FFL? I can not locate a MGL chapter and section on it.

Thanks, Dave

 

[TayNinh_66]

U. S. Code 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)(b) and implementing regulation 27 CFR 478.11 exempts black powder replicas. I think 140 MGL 129c covers MA transfers.
Doesn't mean anyone out of state will ship to you. Most people do not know the regs, and may decline to ship anything to MA, FFL or not.

 

[Dewmyster]

Cabelas will not ship to MA

 

[exo]

A black powder rifle is NOT a "firearm" under Federal or MA laws. Note that this does not include the ones that can swap barrels for a centerfire, those are "firearms".

As others have said, some vendors are retarded about MA and won't ship here.

 

[MACGYVR]

Cabelas will not ship to MA

It is irrelavent with Cabelas in Hartford. Just ship to the store. Walk in and pick it up. Done.

You can even buy other shiny things and have them shipped to the store.

 

[Mark from MA]

Yes i bought A muzzleloader online that way. If they will ship your good to go.

 

[loneranger]

My own research on receiving an out-of-state 1887 Winchester shotgun from a seller to myself in Mass (Neither are FFL's). I think we are both okay. Mine is also considered an antique which nails it.

Section 129C Application of Sec. 129B; ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition; transfers; report to commissioner; exemptions; exhibiting license to carry, etc. on demand
...
No person shall sell, give away, loan or otherwise transfer a rifle or shotgun or ammunition other than (a) by operation of law, or (b) to an exempt person as hereinafter described, or (c) to a licensed dealer, or (d) to a person who displays his firearm identification card, or license to carry a pistol or revolver.
...
The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:
...
(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121, and the carrying or possession of conventional rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor by nonresidents who meet the requirements for such carrying or possession in the state in which they reside.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129C

 

[GSG]

U. S. Code 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)(b) and implementing regulation 27 CFR 478.11 exempts black powder replicas. I think 140 MGL 129c covers MA transfers.
Doesn't mean anyone out of state will ship to you. Most people do not know the regs, and may decline to ship anything to MA, FFL or not.

Remember state law is more restrictive than fed law on this subject. BP rifles are fine, BP handguns are the exact same as regular handguns under MGL, subject to all the same legal shenanigans as a Glock or 1911.

A black powder rifle is NOT a "firearm" under Federal or MA laws.

Correctimundo.

If they will ship your good to go.

Not necessarily.

 

[waltherlover]

Remember state law is more restrictive than fed law on this subject. BP rifles are fine, BP handguns are the exact same as regular handguns under MGL, subject to all the same legal shenanigans as a Glock or 1911.

I'm not sure if this is correct. I believe it is perfectly legal to own the BP handgun, just not the stuff you need to shoot it. Do we have some sort cite for this?

This seems to say otherwise:

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;

(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

(C) manufacturers or wholesalers of firearms, rifles, shotguns or machine guns.

 

[GSG]

That's only one part of the law.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...bow-do-you-need-a-license-for-one-in-MA/page5

Short answer is caselaw changes that.

 

[Kevlar]

That's only one part of the law.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...bow-do-you-need-a-license-for-one-in-MA/page5

Short answer is caselaw changes that.

First, welcome back.

Second, recent case law has reversed Bibby...

A firearm manufactured before 1900 is a "firearm" within the definition of G. L. c. 140, § 121, which defines a "[f]irearm" as "a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured." However, § 121 also provides that the "provisions of [§§] 122 to 129D, inclusive, and [§§] 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to . . . any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899." Because G. L. c. 140, § 131, governs licenses to carry firearms, and because § 131 does not apply to firearms manufactured before 1900, a person does not need a license to carry a firearm made before 1900. The carrying of such an antique firearm, therefore, is exempted by § 131 from the prohibition in G. L. c. 269, § 10 (a), against carrying a firearm without a license. See G. L. c. 269, § 10 (a) ("Whoever, except as provided or exempted by statute, knowingly has [a firearm] in his possession . . . or . . . under his control in a vehicle" without license to carry firearms issued under G. L. c. 140, § 131, is guilty of crime). As a result, a defendant may not be convicted under § 10 (a) of carrying a firearm manufactured before 1900 without a license to carry because the defendant is permitted to carry such an antique firearm without a license to carry.

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/461/461mass821.html

 

[exo]

First, welcome back.

Second, recent case law has reversed Bibby...



http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/461/461mass821.html

So what does that mean with regards to modern production muzzleloaders?

 

[MisterHappy]

It would seem that a reproduction of a pre-1900 BP arm should be treated in the same manner as an arm that was made before 1900, as other places in the MGLs combine the two - your primitive firearm could have been made last week.

Of course, this IS the PRM.

IANAL, YMMV, and all that

 

[GSG]

First, welcome back.

When my email tells me I have a PM, I log in and post sometimes .

Second, recent case law has reversed Bibby...

Ehhhhhh...there's some issues with this case. Catch this little gem?:

[Note 9] Under the holding in Commonwealth v. Bibby, 54 Mass. App. Ct. 158 , 163- 164 (2002), an owner of a firearm manufactured before 1900 could never bring the firearm to a historical war reenactment, because it is a firearm under G. L. c. 269, § 10 (a), and thus requires a license to carry, but he could not obtain a license to carry such a firearm, because the provisions of G. L. c. 140, § 131, "shall not apply" to such a firearm.

Brilliant conclusion. If it's not specifically stated to be legal, it is actually illegal in Mass. So unless the legislature allows for issuance of an LTC-Spoon, you better not carry one in your lunchbox.

It would seem that a reproduction of a pre-1900 BP arm should be treated in the same manner as an arm that was made before 1900, as other places in the MGLs combine the two - your primitive firearm could have been made last week.

Exactly. The SJC very carefully avoided answering that question. They came right out & admitted the case was a mess when it came to the antique firearm aspect.

Because of the judge's ruling on the motion in limine, the defendants were denied the opportunity to raise this affirmative defense before the jury and argue that, if the Commonwealth failed to prove that the firearm was manufactured after 1899, the defendants should be found not guilty of the offenses predicated on the unlawful carrying of a firearm. The judge's ruling also meant that the Commonwealth was not required to rebut this affirmative defense to prevail at trial and, therefore, did not need either to present evidence regarding the manufacturing date of the firearm or to challenge the expert's testimony that the firearm was manufactured in 1896.

Rule 14 (b) (3) of the Massachusetts Rules of Criminal Procedure, as appearing in 442 Mass. 1518 (2004), requires defendants to provide pretrial notice that they intend to rely on a defense of exemption. The defendants here failed to provide clear notice before trial of their defense that, because the firearm was manufactured before 1900, it was exempt from the licensing requirement and may lawfully be carried without a license. Had they done so, the Commonwealth would have had the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the firearm was not manufactured before 1900 once the defendants met their burden of production through the testimony of their firearm expert that the revolver was manufactured in 1896. Moreover, the defendants here confused the issue by arguing to the motion and trial judges that a firearm manufactured "before 1899" was not a "firearm" under G. L. c. 140, § 121, an argument the judges properly rejected. In these circumstances, it would not be fair to order a judgment of acquittal on the firearm charges where the Commonwealth offered no evidence that the firearm was manufactured after 1899. Nor would it be fair to conclude that the defendants waived this defense where they provided the judge and the Commonwealth with notice in advance of trial of evidence that the firearm was manufactured before 1900 but failed properly to characterize their defense as one of exemption. We conclude that the only fair result here is to reverse the convictions of carrying a firearm without a license and the unlawful possession of a loaded firearm, and remand for a new trial to give the defendants the opportunity to offer evidence of their affirmative defense and the Commonwealth the opportunity to offer evidence in rebuttal.

This one's a rematch, not a TKO. There's still a lot left to be sorted out here. Depending on what evidence either side produces for the next go around will determine their final answer on it.

 

[Tweed]

I had a muzzle loader shipped to me in Mass from CT in March. The company did not ask for special ID.

 

[exo]

So, okay, I'm not a lawyer and to refine my previous question: How do these rulings affect possession and carry of modern black powder (or their substitutes) guns? My understanding is that there is still no license required to purchase, possess, or carry them. What am I missing here, is this to do with the difference between a long gun and a handgun?

I appreciate the help from those of you who speak legalese

 

[SalemCat]

Don't forget that although almost anyone can buy an 1898 or pre 1898 firearm or replica through the mail or in person, all the Ammunition Components in MA are FID or better.

And yes, if you Open Carry, CC, or fire said Antique as if it were somehow exempt from modern Firearm Law, you will be arrested.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

Cabelas will not ship to MA

Not true in regards to in-lines.

Bob

 

[SalemCat]

So, okay, I'm not a lawyer and to refine my previous question: How do these rulings affect possession and carry of modern black powder (or their substitutes) guns? My understanding is that there is still no license required to purchase, possess, or carry them. What am I missing here, is this to do with the difference between a long gun and a handgun?

I appreciate the help from those of you who speak legalese

I would be SHOCKED if a LEO caught you carrying an Antique "Firearm", and did not arrest you.

Ok, if you're an obvious re-enactor, at a re-enactor event, no sweat.

But walking down the street, or at a Mall ?

Maybe it's technically Legal. Maybe you'll be cleared. AFTER a hefty legal fee. Not worth it.

Can you CC a BP Handgun ? With no License ? Might even be legal.

Just don't get caught.

And remember, even if you are a re-enactor. If you're loaded - FID or better in MA required.

 

[SalemCat]

BP handguns are the exact same as regular handguns under MGL, subject to all the same legal shenanigans as a Glock or 1911.

Not arguing. But where is this found ?

I was was under the impression BP 1899 and earlier non-rimfire, non-centerfire, ANTIQUES were legal for anyone in MA. Long-Gun and HandGun.

 

[Kevlar]

...all the Ammunition Components in MA are FID or better.

If you're loaded - FID or better in MA required.

MGL 140-129C(p) exempts possession of BP and components from the licensing requirements.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129C

Not arguing. But where is this found ?

I was was under the impression BP 1899 and earlier non-rimfire, non-centerfire, ANTIQUES were legal for anyone in MA. Long-Gun and HandGun.

Case law. See posts #10 and #11.

 

[SalemCat]

MGL 140-129C(p) exempts possession of BP and components from the licensing requirements. http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129C Case law. See posts #10 and #11.

Very Nice !

I suspect a LEO would still arrest, though.

Do the B&M FFL's know they can sell this stuff ?

 

[JNewell]

YMMV, but what I've run into with B&M stores in MA and black powder is fire code issues, not gun law issues.

Very Nice !

I suspect a LEO would still arrest, though.

Do the B&M FFL's know they can sell this stuff ?

 

[SalemCat]

---

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;

(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

(C) manufacturers or wholesalers of firearms, rifles, shotguns or machine guns.

---

The interesting thing here is that CENTERFIRE & RIMFIRE FIREARMS seem to be exempt if they were manufactured in 1899 or before, but REPLICAS of CENTERFIRE & RIMFIRE FIREARMS are not exempt - except if you cannot buy Ammo for them.

 

[Billsail]

Ok, it seems 99.9% percent of the posters in this thread missed the part in the OP that asks about an in-line muzzle loader that is not a replica of any sort! Beyond that, I am ignorant of the nuances of the laws pertaining to this.

 

[MisterHappy]

An in-line muzzle loader is considered a "primitive" firearm, as it's a muzzle loader.

 

[kaiser2help]

1858 .44 cal B/P revolver

I recently made a purchase from Cabelas. As the title states, I purchased this pistol which was advertised with a free starter kit. Balls, nipple wrench, cap holder,( get your mind out of the gutter) and powder flask and a few other small items. I did receive the pistol without a hitch. However, no starter kit. Called them. They said in the add that to check for restrictions in MA. Thats my question. Can you ship this type pistol and not the starter kit.

 

[SalemCat]

Oh for crying out loud. Mass Laws are F'd up.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I recently made a purchase from Cabelas. As the title states, I purchased this pistol which was advertised with a free starter kit. Balls, nipple wrench, cap holder,( get your mind out of the gutter) and powder flask and a few other small items. I did receive the pistol without a hitch. However, no starter kit. Called them. They said in the add that to check for restrictions in MA. Thats my question. Can you ship this type pistol and not the starter kit.

Sorry, no balls are allowed in MA.

 

[mac67]

Keep it simple and buy mine......