Muzzleloader black powder no fid

its an issue because it’s a right it’s in the legislation shouldn’t be forced to do something you don’t need to do because it’s in plain English and people just look at a paragraph and not read further I’m an American I believe in freedom the legislation supports that it’s exempt in a whole and everyone wants to section the legislation and leave out the parts that says so called black powder guns are exempt and there ammunition and ammunition is defined clearly and is also exempt idk it’s the law if you read the whole thing your not in violation of anything and legally should be able to purchase
Welcome to Massachusetts. The laws are so confusing here (Just look at how many different chapters and sections there are for just firearm related topics scattered around the MGL's) and dealer's licenses are so easily stripped away that most will err on the side of extreme caution.
 
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Pretty much all right here cut and dry to me it is exempt from fid gun and ammo also says one can purchase with I.d. Is there something I’m missing that says different how come most are using bits n pieces to say no when it’s a whole section, explanation of how it’s exempt black powder gun and it’s ammunition, ammunition is defined and says it’s exempt chapter 140 section 129c states so and states your supposed to be able to purchase black powder ammunition with identification

Section 10 4 says still exempt from it
The question posed is regarding the purchase of black powder.

An FID is required to purchase ammunition in Massachusetts. There is no exemption.
 
its an issue because it’s a right it’s in the legislation shouldn’t be forced to do something you don’t need to do because it’s in plain English and people just look at a paragraph and not read further I’m an American I believe in freedom the legislation supports that it’s exempt in a whole and everyone wants to section the legislation and leave out the parts that says so called black powder guns are exempt and there ammunition and ammunition is defined clearly and is also exempt idk it’s the law if you read the whole thing your not in violation of anything and legally should be able to purchase
My suggestion is do what the muzzle loader hunters have always done.....buy your BP projos and primers in NH or online and just use your BP gun to hunt and you'll be fine.

Mass sucks......it is what it is. Your not going to convince a gun shop owner it's your right to buy bp from them
 
The question posed is regarding the purchase of black powder.

An FID is required to purchase ammunition in Massachusetts. There is no exemption.
No it shouldn’t be look at this from chapter 140 section 129c
 

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Let be honest with ourselves, there are a lot of laws written one way and interpreted another. There are super secret AG lists that have never been seen. There are also press conferences/memorandums that seem to somehow have "enforcement" ability.

Even if the law is written one way, that doesn't mean shops or dealers will sell. Is it right? No.

You can fight it. Be prepared for a lengthy and costly battle. That's not meant to discourage you... because if we didn't have people draw lines in the sand and fight for things, then we'd be a lot worse off than we are.

But, it's a lot easier to go to a free state or order online from places.
 
So far you have made zero positive contributions to the conversation bro... IDK as that being an ass hole helps people who are newer to firearm laws in MA. We should be helping such people and welcoming them to the NEX community. Not brushing them off with an attitude... Bad form bro....


OP.
There are plenty of web sites that will ship ML supplies right to your door. In fact, 100% of my ML stuff has come from online and that includes the ML itself! Shipped right to my door... Blackhorn 209, primers, powerbelts, saboted bullets, etc... No problems and no questions... Such muzzleloading supply sites are not hard to find. So getting stuff should not be an issue.

That said - you're not allowed to possess ammunition COMPOINETS in MA absent a license. So power, bullets, etc.... ML or smokeless making no difference.... are under that umbrella.

If you do not want to accept HOW THE LAW IS APPLIED BY THE AG, then be prepared to reap the consequences of your action... Get your FID or LTC card... If you hunt, you will probably have an encounter with EPO at some point.
So far you have made zero positive contributions to the conversation bro... IDK as that being an ass hole helps people who are newer to firearm laws in MA. We should be helping such people and welcoming them to the NEX community. Not brushing them off with an attitude... Bad form bro....


OP.
There are plenty of web sites that will ship ML supplies right to your door. In fact, 100% of my ML stuff has come from online and that includes the ML itself! Shipped right to my door... Blackhorn 209, primers, powerbelts, saboted bullets, etc... No problems and no questions... Such muzzleloading supply sites are not hard to find. So getting stuff should not be an issue.

That said - you're not allowed to possess ammunition COMPOINETS in MA absent a license. So power, bullets, etc.... ML or smokeless making no difference.... are under that umbrella.

If you do not want to accept HOW THE LAW IS APPLIED BY THE AG, then be prepared to reap the consequences of your action... Get your FID or LTC card... If you hunt, you will probably have an encounter with EPO at some point.
 
Except there is. According to MA MGL Ch. 140 § 129C(p) black powder ammunition is exempt from Ch. 140 § 129C.

Cool.

So I can go buy some 45 caliber bullets to put in the sabots that’s I am shooting out of inline ML. I will also need to get some 209 primers.

Oh wait I need to reload some BP cartridges so I need all those components too.

I’m so glad thatI don’t need a license for any of that stuff./s

The laws in this state suck.

It is best to just get the license or buy it out of state as LuvDog posted.

Bob
 
Sec 129 excludes possession of BP components - it does not allow for the purchase

Sec 123 -
That no delivery of a firearm shall be made to any person not having a license to carry firearms issued under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty-one nor shall any delivery of a rifle or shotgun or ammunition be made to any minor nor to any person not having a license to carry firearms issued under the provisions of section one hundred and thirty-one or a firearm identification card issued under the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine

No person licensed under the provisions of section 122 or section 122B shall sell, rent, lease, transfer or deliver any rifle, shotgun or firearm or ammunition or ammunition feeding device contrary to the provisions of section 130 or section 131E; and no such licensee shall sell, rent, lease, transfer or deliver any rifle, shotgun or firearm or ammunition or ammunition feeding device to any person who does not have in his possession the required firearm identification card or proof of exemption therefrom, license to carry firearms or permit to purchase, rent or lease firearms and who does not present such card, proof, license or permit to the licensee in person at the time of purchase, rental or lease

You can purchase BP components without an LTC or FID if you can produce the elusive "proof of exemption therefrom" that is completely undefined
Also, 209 primers ARE NOT BP components as you can used them in a shotgun shell nor are 45 cal bullets (but the sabot is)
 
Carrying or possessing. No exemption for purchasing.

BTW, thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't found the exemption for possessing ammo hidden in there.
It really isn't unless you are using round balls or REAL type bullets
 
Well, I have to be more careful what I post now. PreBanMan is unhappy with me because I have not contributed anything useful to this thread. See post #24. That's because I have not researched the issue and suggested that the OP do so rather than me just rendering another opinion. PBM can write a short apology to me on the back of a $50, or better yet, a $100 bill and send it to me. LOLx10. Jack.
 
Well, I have to be more careful what I post now. PreBanMan is unhappy with me because I have not contributed anything useful to this thread. See post #24. That's because I have not researched the issue and suggested that the OP do so rather than me just rendering another opinion. PBM can write a short apology to me on the back of a $50, or better yet, a $100 bill and send it to me. LOLx10. Jack.
Telling someone to read the damn law themselves IS helpful

I knew that primitive ammunition components were exempt from possession for hunting but hadn't researched the exact place where exempted - I also knew that the exemption didn't apply to a lot of newer BP stuff because of things like sabots and 209 inlines.

You might get the court to believe that your 240g XTP bullet really is a BP component after you spend several thousand on counsel or the court might just say that the common use is for 44mag center fire and string you up as a PP.
 
IDK if this has been mentioned before, but there are rifles equipped with M/L barrels which can take drop in factory barrels to convert them to shotgun or centerfire. These are shipped only to FFLs by distributers. In Mass these require at least the FID and are "registered" as a shotgun or rifle (your choice) even if it only has the M/L barrel on it when you buy it. Jack.
 
OP: We understand that you're unhappy with the DPRM laws. Join the club.

You can possess, but not purchase, primitive arms components without an FID. Take a drive to Kittery.

The reason is that the laws, as written, treat it as "ammunition", but put in an "except" for possession, but not purchase. Don't like it? See the first line of my post.

My personal opinion is that you get an FID/LTC, so that when a Karen calls up John Law about a man with a gun in the woods, and the local Po-po shows up, they may not know the carve-out for BP arms possession, and the FID/LTC will keep unpleasantness from happening.

If you uses an in-line that used a 209 primer, you DO need an FID/LTC. A few years back, a moron shot a jogger, with a BP inline, and one of the charges he was hit with, was unlicensed possession of ammo: primers.

Bottom line is that if you don't have a permission slip, and you wanna buy, you gotta fly. And, congrats on being able to do your hunting on your terms, in a tiny loopholey way. [laugh]
 
Sec 129 excludes possession of BP components - it does not allow for the purchase

Sec 123 -



You can purchase BP components without an LTC or FID if you can produce the elusive "proof of exemption therefrom" that is completely undefined
Also, 209 primers ARE NOT BP components as you can used them in a shotgun shell nor are 45 cal bullets (but the sabot is)
Here is the proof of exemption to buy ammunition for bp in chapter 140c sec129c below here is a picture of the literature
 

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Gun is fine, the problem is ammunition or any ammunition component including black powder.

Make your life easy and apply for a FID card and CYA, it isn't worth the legal fees if some cop or nature cop decides to cuff and stuff you for the courts to sort out.

I just want to repeat myself from post 13, now that people who know more than I have chimed in



You have had a couple of people chime in that have passed the bar ( do not take anything posted on this forum as legal advice btw)

They have given you their personal opinions

Others who are pretty knowledgeable have chimed in.

It seems to me POSSESSION of certain BP is legal without any permit or license, it is BUYING them that is an issue.

Even then any FFL in MA can say no to selling you BP and probably will.

So after several days of discussion, the 2A friendly folks have given you opinion

Now you are out in a field, it could even be on your own land, or a friends land, or a private property where you have written permission to be.

You are trying to take some sort of game, fowl, or otherwise.

You let off a couple of blasts and one of the Karen's down the street calls the PoPo and they roll up to investigate.

Cops are not Lawyers, the chances of you having a Cop with deep knowledge of MGL on BP hunting and what you are legally able to do is near zero

What you are going to get is some cop who is going to disarm you at gun point, and then arrest you because all he or she knows is they were taught a FID is needed for a rifle, you don't have one, and they are going to get lots of OT for going to court from the arraignment thru the trial, because you will prosecuted and it will go to trial.

You will spend tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees, time out of work, etc etc etc.

Now I am not a fan of MA or their gun laws, there is a reason I don't live their anymore, but for the cost of a FID 99% of your risk can be avoided.

And you can go buy as much BP as you want from your friendly local gun shop

If you want to test the system, go wild.

This is not the hill I would want want to die on.

Oh and IF you prevail, good luck getting the rifle back from the cops without a court order, assuming thy have not sent it to a bonded warehouse where it will cost you thousands of dollars to get it back
 
At the risk of being chastised, I can’t find any wording in the mgls saying a person may possess bp and primer caps.
I understand the permit to purchase, but to possess? That’s where the confusion lies.
 
At the risk of being chastised, I can’t find any wording in the mgls saying a person may possess bp and primer caps.
I understand the permit to purchase, but to possess? That’s where the confusion lies.
There may be a specific answer, but perhaps there's at least the possibility that
The Generic Answer suffices -
maybe it's next to the statute allowing possession of bacon?
 
209 primers are "modern ammunition" = need an FID = stick with a flintlock or caplock if you don't have an FID


page 21
"No firearms license is needed by bow hunters, nor by minors 12–14 years old hunting with a duly licensed adult, nor for the possession of primitive rifles or primitive shotguns as defined in MGL Ch. 140, Section 121, or their ammunition. However, an LTC or FID is required to purchase all ammunition including black powder and Pyrodex."

"'Ammunition'', cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun."

"The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:
(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) .... "
 
Naw, I was just holding out the possibility
that you're not going to find a law declaring that thing to be legal.

It's never impossible,
but those laws are more an exception than a rule.
So what you’re saying is the .magov has chastised me?
I f***ing knew some sonofabitch was chastising me!
 
Hi I’m new here I’ve hunted in mass with bow and black powder for years , so I’ve never really cared about an fid card and have talked to environmental and they said it was ok for me to hunt with the black powder smoothie I own. I know you can’t purchase the ammunition but why? where is it cited when I looked up legislation chapter 140 129c and read paragraph p it’s says so called black powder shot guns rifles and ammunition were exempt and the definition of ammunition is defined I believe in section 121 so there is no argument that it is exempt and on section 129c if you go down a ways says persons exempt in paragraph p and others need to only positively identify themselves to purchase ammunition in mass so what gives? I only ask because when I tried to use a gun range someone told me I can’t have the ammunition but could have the gun but when I put the ammunition together it’s a firearm but my take on it is the legislation clearly exempts the black powder rifle and shotgun and it’s ammunition and ammunition is clearly defined idk all input welcome sorry in advance for spelling and punctuation thanks.

Ahh, NES...

OP: "idk all input welcome"

NES: *gives unwelcome input*

OP: "YOU'RE WRONG!!!"

Love this place. I have no idea how I missed this thread first time around.
 
At the risk of being chastised, I can’t find any wording in the mgls saying a person may possess bp and primer caps.
I understand the permit to purchase, but to possess? That’s where the confusion lies.
Laws are written that prohibited things not allow them.
 
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