Mulling over powders for 300gr 45C loads

[meh]

I'm mulling over powders to drive moderate 45C Ruger-only loads with 300 grain hard cast (18 BHN) bullets. H110/W296 gives hotter loads than I want. With HS-6 I'm getting around 1050+ fps out of a 5.5" Blackhawk. I wouldn't mind a small increment over that, though mostly for my Henry rather than the Blackhawk. Some other concerns are temperature sensitivity (on a cold day last winter my HS-6 loads felt pretty wimpy), position sensitivity, clean-burning, etc.

I've tried a few other powders, and mused about a half dozen powders between HS-6 and AA#9 on the burn-rate chart, but I thought I'd ask what are the pros and cons of the powders you know about for an application like this?

 

[TrashcanDan]

I thought had read someplace that the Henry's had trouble with anything over 260 gr in .45, cycling issues I believe.

So I don't load for it, but curiosity made me do a search.
Pulled this off of castboolits. Kind f a fuddy site, but has some good info. From a 2016 thread-

"Thanks to everyone here on the comments. I wanted to add this to the thread even though I am terribly late. The amount of steel around the 44 mag is greater than the 45 colt caliber. This is just one Part of the reason things get questioned. The other that was already stated was the fact that there really is no +P in 45 Colt. We have no sammi specs to such. But generally speaking the 45 colt can shoot the same velocities as the 44 mag with less pressures. But lets please not get into the 44 VS the 45 argument here. Just goning to offer some info.
I also want to offer some much better ammo than the Buffalo Bore and that is the Garrett ammo. It is 260 grain Lead Hard Cast going 1000 FPS from a 7 1/2 in barrel of a Colt SAA third Gen or a USFA pistol. and of course these can be used in Rugers and I am sure that these would be no problem in a rifle. I have shot many of these in my Colt SAA with no problems.
Two other offerings would be the 335 grain ( cast bullets only ) from Lead head bullets. I would suggest purchase first to try,,,, before casting.
I had some 360 grain bullets that will barely fit or cycle I should probably say, and they are a hoot to shoot. These heavier bullets will print higher and just may get you out to where a 150 yd shot or further is not so questionable. With the 335 I used H110 and with the 360 grain I used LIL Gun. 16 grains of the LILGun was the most accurate. It can be coaxed all the way to 19 grains. These are a milder solution than the Garrett offerings in the 365 grain Hammer Heads.

Another suggestion is to load a dummy round of one of these to see if it cycles in your gun before Loading Live. The last thing is to check the twist rate of the rifle you use. In 45 colt the best twist rate has been the 1-16 if the rifle is using something different then your results may well be different. Last if the 335 or the 360 will not cycle in your rifle then consider doing this. (Deep Seating) A 335 loaded with 20 grains of H110 or 10.5 of HS-6 Deep Seated to the beginning of the Ogive will give you the same results as the standard practice of loading to the crimp. With a slight roll crimp there is no bullet jump. COAL can range from 1.555 to 1.696 I was not able to check the velocities of these nor any of the other loads this summer when I was doing this. The dates that I was able to got to the range coincided with the windy days. On 2 occasions my chronograph was blown over. But I do know that the deep seated loads give about 900 to 1109 FPS in a 4 3/4 barrel pistol. Each pistol and rifle is going to give different results, in velocity and in bullets drop of course. But this was another alternative to just the same options we have been given before.

To those of you that are considering the 44 mag Let me tell you that the Garrett will NOT fit into a rifle. I had a Taylor Alaskan and the Buffalo Bore shot well in it. It was the 305 grain. Not sure about what the Henry will do.

Last thing is the stepped ramp on the rear sights make it easy for me to shoot some lighter loads and then change the ramp and go to the heavier loads when playing at the range. Hard cast, J bullets, and Powder coated have been sent down range with my lever guns and any caliber can be fun. Henry came out with the 41 mag and is coming out with a 327 soon. Options are open and the fun is endless. Great thread,,, Lots of good comments and info."

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

I'm mulling over powders to drive moderate 45C Ruger-only loads with 300 grain hard cast (18 BHN) bullets. H110/W296 gives hotter loads than I want. With HS-6 I'm getting around 1050+ fps out of a 5.5" Blackhawk. I wouldn't mind a small increment over that, though mostly for my Henry rather than the Blackhawk. Some other concerns are temperature sensitivity (on a cold day last winter my HS-6 loads felt pretty wimpy), position sensitivity, clean-burning, etc.

I've tried a few other powders, and mused about a half dozen powders between HS-6 and AA#9 on the burn-rate chart, but I thought I'd ask what are the pros and cons of the powders you know about for an application like this?

In my magnum revolver experience I’ve always stayed away from ball powders. I haven’t loaded many magnum 45 colt (only a handful with a buddy 4 or 5 years ago) but plenty of 357 and 44
I lean towards 2400.
It will usually give you damn near what h110 will but it has more play with powder weights up and done before without acting weird. More importantly to me it doesn’t have such bad gas cutting as H110 and other ball powders.
It might not be a big deal with a Ruger because if you have the funds you can pop down to the store and buy a new one when yours is shot out. With a nice pre lock S&W you’re SOL.
I’ve handled a buddies 44 Stainless Vaquero that saw a steady diet of hot loads. The forcing cone looked like an abrasive hole saw and the cylinder gap was surely out of spec.

So if you’re just punching paper and want to feel some great recoil go for 2400 powder. You won’t notice the 50 FPS slower bullets but your gun will thank you in the long run.

 

[meh]

I thought had read someplace that the Henry's had trouble with anything over 260 gr in .45, cycling issues I believe.

Thanks. I can well imagine that heavy WFNs would have issues. Some of them have COL's longer than 1.600". But the Missouri 300 grain TCFP's have a COL of about 1.580” or so when crimped to the crimping groove that gives the shorter COL. The bullet profile on the TCFP's is fine as well. They're great in the Henry, or mine at least.

Interesting that you should mention cycling issues, though, as just the other day I learned how bad it could be on the short side, the problem with cartridges too long being quite obvious enough. I had loaded up a bunch of 125 grain coated LRNFP 38 special powder puff loads and earmarked about 120 of them for my Rossi 357M trapper. The Rossi has a chamber wider in back, enough that it will bulge brass in comparison to the thick base of the case when it is fire-formed, so I use only scrap brass for it, mixed headstamp stuff that I normally wouldn't bother with. I've recently decided to segregate brass for it instead and just resize the cases to about the half-way part once they've been fired in the gun, but I haven't yet reloaded any of the fire formed cases, so we'll see how that goes. Anyway, the 125 grain LRNFP's are too short. I got one weird sort of jam reminiscent of a double feed in a semi-auto that I didn't even know was possible. Live and learn.

 

[meh]

In my magnum revolver experience I’ve always stayed away from ball powders. I haven’t loaded many magnum 45 colt (only a handful with a buddy 4 or 5 years ago) but plenty of 357 and 44
I lean towards 2400.
It will usually give you damn near what h110 will but it has more play with powder weights up and done before without acting weird. More importantly to me it doesn’t have such bad gas cutting as H110 and other ball powders.
It might not be a big deal with a Ruger because if you have the funds you can pop down to the store and buy a new one when yours is shot out. With a nice pre lock S&W you’re SOL.
I’ve handled a buddies 44 Stainless Vaquero that saw a steady diet of hot loads. The forcing cone looked like an abrasive hole saw and the cylinder gap was surely out of spec.

So if you’re just punching paper and want to feel some great recoil go for 2400 powder. You won’t notice the 50 FPS slower bullets but your gun will thank you in the long run.

Thanks. For me the 45C Blackhawk gives a different experience because I can shoot 300 grain bullets out of it. I mainly mentioned velocity in the Blackhawk rather than the Henry because I thought it would be a more familiar point of reference. I don't care so much about the Blackhawk being powerful, but if I can have one load that works well in both the Henry and the Blackhawk, that would be great. Standard pressure 300gr 45C loads out of the Henry will have a lot of drop at 100 yards, and up to now I haven't tried a slow-moving load that gave me good accuracy at distance.

I think I've mentioned to you before that I don't favor H110/W296 in revolvers. I doubt I've fired more than 200 rounds of H110/W296 loads of any caliber in all of my revolvers combined, mainly to get chronograph results and just to see what it would be like. I've tentatively planned to shoot more of my 180 grain 357 Magnum loads in my current production model 27-9 with a 6.5" barrel, but I was hoping the heavy and long bullets with just 13 grains of H110/W296 would be easier on the gun than the light 125 grain heavy magnum loads that many 357M shooters seem to favor. At any rate, I'm not married to the choice. Given Andrew's success with the 158 grain Zero bullets over 2400, I probably owe it to myself to pick up some 2400 and give it a try in all three of my revolver calibers.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Thanks. For me the 45C Blackhawk gives a different experience because I can shoot 300 grain bullets out of it. I mainly mentioned velocity in the Blackhawk rather than the Henry because I thought it would be a more familiar point of reference. I don't care so much about the Blackhawk being powerful, but if I can have one load that works well in both the Henry and the Blackhawk, that would be great. Standard pressure 300gr 45C loads out of the Henry will have a lot of drop at 100 yards, and up to now I haven't tried a slow-moving load that gave me good accuracy at distance.

I think I've mentioned to you before that I don't favor H110/W296 in revolvers. I doubt I've fired more than 200 rounds of H110/W296 loads of any caliber in all of my revolvers combined, mainly to get chronograph results and just to see what it would be like. I've tentatively planned to shoot more of my 180 grain 357 Magnum loads in my current production model 27-9 with a 6.5" barrel, but I was hoping the heavy and long bullets with just 13 grains of H110/W296 would be easier on the gun than the light 125 grain heavy magnum loads that many 357M shooters seem to favor. At any rate, I'm not married to the choice. Given Andrew's success with the 158 grain Zero bullets over 2400, I probably owe it to myself to pick up some 2400 and give it a try in all three of my revolver calibers.

You have probably mentioned that. I have a hard time remembering what I had for breakfast though so old conversations are SOL hahaha.
I think you will really like the 2400.

 

[meh]

You have probably mentioned that. I have a hard time remembering what I had for breakfast though so old conversations are SOL hahaha.

I didn't mean it that way. I repeat myself a lot in general, so I tend to be apologetic about it in advance. I think I tell my dentist the same stories every six months. Hopefully he doesn't remember, either.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

I didn't mean it that way. I repeat myself a lot in general, so I tend to be apologetic about it in advance. I think I tell my dentist the same stories every six months. Hopefully he doesn't remember, either.

Not taken that way at all.

 

[TrashcanDan]

Thanks. I can well imagine that heavy WFNs would have issues. Some of them have COL's longer than 1.600". But the Missouri 300 grain TCFP's have a COL of about 1.580” or so when crimped to the crimping groove that gives the shorter COL. The bullet profile on the TCFP's is fine as well. They're great in the Henry, or mine at least.

Interesting that you should mention cycling issues, though, as just the other day I learned how bad it could be on the short side, the problem with cartridges too long being quite obvious enough. I had loaded up a bunch of 125 grain coated LRNFP 38 special powder puff loads and earmarked about 120 of them for my Rossi 357M trapper. The Rossi has a chamber wider in back, enough that it will bulge brass in comparison to the thick base of the case when it is fire-formed, so I use only scrap brass for it, mixed headstamp stuff that I normally wouldn't bother with. I've recently decided to segregate brass for it instead and just resize the cases to about the half-way part once they've been fired in the gun, but I haven't yet reloaded any of the fire formed cases, so we'll see how that goes. Anyway, the 125 grain LRNFP's are too short. I got one weird sort of jam reminiscent of a double feed in a semi-auto that I didn't even know was possible. Live and learn.

Rossi's are a good example of different loads for a similar cartridge.
I had a 92 and had a tough time getting a decent load for it.
Between the twist rate ( i think they run a 1:30 on every rifle they make) and being able to load 125 rnfp's unbelievably long in .357, it wasn't a good rifle for more than 50 yds, at least for me.

Because of the barrel length, I had the best luck with unique powder. Sold the rifle before I started getting into a slower burning rifle powder.

 

[mac1911]

How about Universal ?
Trailboss?
I use clays for 45acp would it work for 45 colt?

Will these work with 300 grain well ? Do you need to shoot 300 grain ?
SASS and cast bullet forum is good for the cast lever gun info

you can find trailboss info here Reference Data – IMR

 

[meh]

How about Universal ?
Trailboss?
I use clays for 45acp would it work for 45 colt?

Will these work with 300 grain well ? Do you need to shoot 300 grain ?
SASS and cast bullet forum is good for the cast lever gun info

you can find trailboss info here Reference Data – IMR

I’ve tried Universal with 250gr and 300gr bullets, just one load each, and my notes say “very good!”. I probably shot them in the Blackhawk. But this would be a standard pressure, slow moving load for the Henry at 100yds. I guess as regards heavy bullets, I don’t need to shoot them, but it’s the niche 45C fills in my recreational shooting. I don’t have a 45-70 (yet) because 45C at Ruger-only pressures is enough for 100yds, and up-loading 45C is reasonably cheap. If I were shooting much farther, I’d need to buy another rifle. Anyway, I have smaller calibers for lesser bullets.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Have you looked at loaddata.com?
I used to subscribe and it was a great resource. It’s a collection of every damn load book and all of the great load data from obscure articles.
I bet there is some great data for heavy 45 colt on there.
I know I’ve found tons of good data for stuff like 45 auto rim which is usually sadly lacking in manuals.

 

[meh]

Have you looked at loaddata.com?
I used to subscribe and it was a great resource. It’s a collection of every damn load book and all of the great load data from obscure articles.
I bet there is some great data for heavy 45 colt on there.
I know I’ve found tons of good data for stuff like 45 auto rim which is usually sadly lacking in manuals.

Sort of. I can see the powder choices for 300 grain 45 Colt loads without subscribing, just not the charge weights.

Since I tried a few Shooters World powders, I'm obviously not averse to working up my own loads as long as I can figure out a reasonable starting point. I was just thinking, though, that I got enticed by those Shooters World powders because of the free hazmat offers, and I'm kind of wishing now that I'd paid my hazmat and, instead of Shooters World powders, I'd have spent my time trying some of the popular powders distributed by Western and Alliant. I've tried just one from each of those at this point (AA#7 and BE-86, respectively).

 

[meh]

Rossi's are a good example of different loads for a similar cartridge.
I had a 92 and had a tough time getting a decent load for it.

I've shot mainly 38 special out of mine because of its brass-torturing chamber, and I'd have shortened it to "under 50 yard gun" until I tried my 125 grain Zero JHPC (looks like Hornady HAP) loads. Had some over a light load of AA#7 that was dirty as could be but an order of magnitude more accurate any of the 38 special loads. My usual loads of that bullet in 357M over 7.5 grains of Universal shot just as well (and more cleanly, no doubt, not that it mattered by then in the session). Now that I think about how loosey-goosey the chamber is, it kind of makes sense that I need to have the longer COAL to get good accuracy. But I sort of count the Rossi as my wife's gun. Been thinking about getting a higher-quality 1892 made by Miroku. Can't justify it, but I want it.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Sort of. I can see the powder choices for 300 grain 45 Colt loads without subscribing, just not the charge weights.

Since I tried a few Shooters World powders, I'm obviously not averse to working up my own loads as long as I can figure out a reasonable starting point. I was just thinking, though, that I got enticed by those Shooters World powders because of the free hazmat offers, and I'm kind of wishing now that I'd paid my hazmat and, instead of Shooters World powders, I'd have spent my time trying some of the popular powders distributed by Western and Alliant. I've tried just one from each of those at this point (AA#7 and BE-86, respectively).

I think I'm going to try some of the shooters world powder myself. They're made by a reputable manufacturer and the price sure is right. I would love to find a couple nice powders in their lineup.

 

[Knob Creek]

I’ve always found this a good resource for loading. They have some 300 Gr loads.

http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm

 

[mac1911]

Sort of. I can see the powder choices for 300 grain 45 Colt loads without subscribing, just not the charge weights.

Since I tried a few Shooters World powders, I'm obviously not averse to working up my own loads as long as I can figure out a reasonable starting point. I was just thinking, though, that I got enticed by those Shooters World powders because of the free hazmat offers, and I'm kind of wishing now that I'd paid my hazmat and, instead of Shooters World powders, I'd have spent my time trying some of the popular powders distributed by Western and Alliant. I've tried just one from each of those at this point (AA#7 and BE-86, respectively).

Have you looked into Shooters World Cowboy powder?
AA5477.?

 

[meh]

Have you looked into Shooters World Cowboy powder?
AA5477.?

If you mean Shooters World Buffalo Rifle and Accurate 5744, both, I think, being the same Lovex powder, the answer is yes. I was researching that just last night. Might be just the thing. Not excited about the unburned powder issue that everyone complains about (and which Western talks about in their FAQ), nor about the Vihtavuori level pricing. Cabelas in Berlin has some 5744 in stock, but at $38 a pound, if memory serves. Was thinking about trying it and, if I like it, never buying it from there again.

 

[gerrycaruso]

I use 296 for 300 grain loads but if you want slightly less power, look at IMR 4227.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

I use 296 for 300 grain loads but if you want slightly less power, look at IMR 4227.

I've heard 4227 is a good powder but very temperature sensitive.
I was looking at it for an alternative to H110 at one point but opted to stick to 2400.
Have you noticed at temp sensitivity with 4227?

 

[gerrycaruso]

I haven't used enough 4227 to notice if it's temp. sensitive but it doesn't seem to burn as clean as 296. It does meter better through the Dillon measure. 296 gums up the Dillon measure and I have to use an old Lyman powder measure when I use 296.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

I haven't used enough 4227 to notice if it's temp. sensitive but it doesn't seem to burn as clean as 296. It does meter better through the Dillon measure. 296 gums up the Dillon measure and I have to use an old Lyman powder measure when I use 296.

Yeah I agree on that. I’ve swapped out all my measure bodies and powder bars till I found the tightest fit that won’t leak with 2400 or H110
The looser ones I keep in my press that I run bulkier powder though.

 

[mac1911]

If you mean Shooters World Buffalo Rifle and Accurate 5744, both, I think, being the same Lovex powder, the answer is yes. I was researching that just last night. Might be just the thing. Not excited about the unburned powder issue that everyone complains about (and which Western talks about in their FAQ), nor about the Vihtavuori level pricing. Cabelas in Berlin has some 5744 in stock, but at $38 a pound, if memory serves. Was thinking about trying it and, if I like it, never buying it from there again.

Yes, also trailboss. Im not sure about the temp sensitivity or unburned powder issues. I use trailboss in reduced rifle loads.
I picked up a pound of 5477 to try in my 1903a3 I use in CMP matches. Have a test batch ready to go.

 

[gerrycaruso]

I use a lot of 5744 for cast bullet rifle loads but it would work in .45 Colt as well. Right now it's $29.00/pound plus shipping and hazmat. I buy in bulk and add a bunch of primers to reduce the hazmat fee. Even if the powder you choose is expensive, you only use a little of it and the alternative is very expensive factory ammo.

 

[meh]

Lovex D060 (which Accurate 5744 purports to be) is even cheaper in its Shooters World incarnation as Buffalo Rifle (Lovex D060-01), which is on sale just now. Whether they are identical or differ in some minor detail, I wouldn't know. At any rate, for the time being, I decided to stay in analysis paralysis for my future 45C loads, insofar as I have enough powder (such as it is) for the entire stock of .45C bullets I currently have on hand. That said, I did just order (because of a free hazmat offer) several pounds of 2400, though not principally for 45C, rather for .357M and .44M hard cast loads...and to chase after Andrew's results in .357M with the 158 grain Zero JHPs. Of course I will do some experimentation with it in 45C and see how it does.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Lovex D060 (which Accurate 5744 purports to be) is even cheaper in its Shooters World incarnation as Buffalo Rifle (Lovex D060-01), which is on sale just now. Whether they are identical or differ in some minor detail, I wouldn't know. At any rate, for the time being, I decided to stay in analysis paralysis for my future 45C loads, insofar as I have enough powder (such as it is) for the entire stock of .45C bullets I currently have on hand. That said, I did just order (because of a free hazmat offer) several pounds of 2400, though not principally for 45C, rather for .357M and .44M hard cast loads...and to chase after Andrew's results in .357M with the 158 grain Zero JHPs. Of course I will do some experimentation with it in 45C and see how it does.

Hmmm. I think I need some 5744 or Buffalo Rifle powder.
I’ve never used anything from accurate but the more I look into their load data and see loads for 460 Rowland and 230 grain 38 special bullets the more I like them.

 

[meh]

I did some experiments today with 2400 and also some sets with Auto Pistol loads, which I hadn't done before, to see if it has a sweet spot. 2400 works fine, and I don't see any problems with unburned powder. But OMG, Auto Pistol gives some consistent results! It makes me think why fight it, just go with the Auto Pistol, forget about an extra 50fps or whatever, and be done with it.

All loads 300gr Missouri Bullet Company TCFP (Hi-Tek), 5 shots (except for the 17.0gr 2400 load, which has 6 shots in the stats, only 5 of which were directed into the group), 20" Henry Big Boy

Groups shot at 25 yards, 10-15 mph wind

16.0gr 2400: mean = 1288, ES = 40, STDEV = 15
16.5gr 2400: mean = 1317, ES = 60, STDEV = 22
17.0gr 2400: mean = 1329, ES = 40, STDEV = 15 (no two shots touching, worst in that sense but not terrible)
10.5gr Auto Pistol: mean = 1168, ES = 6, STDEV = 3 (best group)
11.0gr Auto Pistol: mean = 1217, ES = 24, STDEV = 9
11.5gr Auto Pistol: mean = 1254, ES = 8, STDEV = 4
12.0gr Auto Pistol: mean = 1294, ES = 6, STDEV = 2 (tight group of 4 with 1 flier--my fault?)

I also like the way Auto Pistol velocities are just stepping up so consistently as the charge increases.