Moving back to MA want to know if I'll have issues getting FID/LTC

[GL2020]

I’ve seen questions here like this before, but the one that gave the specific answer had a broken-link to a thread that goes nowhere. Let me begin by saying I was a lifelong MA resident until 2 years ago. From the time I was 15 (1978) I had an FID. It was the old paper FID with nothing but a name, address, and signature and “Valid until suspended or revoked” at the bottom. That was obviously negated when laws changed. The PD in my hometown can find no record of it of course.

Now my girlfriend and I are considering moving back to MA from RI. I do have guns now (purchased in RI). I know I’ll need to apply for an LTC/FID within 60 days if we do move (and that I don't have to disclose).

So onto the meat of the question(s):
Plain and simple, “What constitutes commitment to a psych facility” in MA as it relates to the LTC/FID application? I believe the circumstances I speak of are a kinda-sorta-gray area.

In 2004 I was suffering from undiagnosed Addison’s disease. It caused wide mood swings and serious/dangerous depression. Gratefully, it’s easily treatable and I’ve been fine ever since. However, I did end up in an ER and “pink-slipped” as a “danger to myself”. Back then it was easy to just say the right words and be sent to a psych ward…. not so much recently. The ER confirmed they do not notify DMH of such events.

I knew from memory (and confirmed with records) my legal status at the facility was “voluntary” once I was evaluated. The only part that was involuntary was the evaluation and first 72 hours if I did not cooperate (but I did). My understanding is that being “pink slipped” is just a lawful way to compel an evaluation and possible admission. It bears mentioning, I was NOT in a DMH (i.e. state run) hospital. I’ve read other state courts have ruled that a 72-hour observation hold does not constitute “committed” even though in some states it’s involuntary “observation”.

Will this show up on a background check for CLT check in MA (I won’t live in the town I did in 2004 )? I’ve read that info from private facilities is not available to background checks, only DHM facilities. So I don’t know what to believe.

When I applied in RI to buy my first rifle, I was told by the dealer “Unless you were ordered by a judge to detox or psych hospital, you’re fine”. I had no issues with NICS check.

I did also have a voluntary admission to a DHM facility (Bridgewater) for substance abuse (alcohol) back in 1991. Back then I was basically homeless….there was no MassHealth, and it was my only option. I’ve been sober since then (29+ years happily living as a 3%-er life in the burbs)…I’m hoping that will not trip me up (they finger printed me).

Hoping to get feedback from people knowledgeable in this area. I’ve heard multiple answers, but mostly speculation

 

[crispnipz]

Probably the best advice is to talk to a lawyer who specializes in firearms laws before you apply because they would be able to guide you as to exactly how to answer the part of the LTC application that pertains to this subject.

Anecdotally, I would think being denied for an LTC on suitability grounds over something like this would depend on how 2A-friendly the chief of police of your new MA town is.

 

[GL2020]

Probably the best advice is to talk to a lawyer who specializes in firearms laws before you apply because they would be able to guide you as to exactly how to answer the part of the LTC application that pertains to this subject.

Anecdotally, I would think being denied for an LTC on suitability grounds over something like this would depend on how 2A-friendly the chief of police of your new MA town is.

Thanks for the response

I spoke to one in brief, but he wanted a load of records....half of which don't exist anymore....or at least that can be found (the state in particular).
The only ones I could locate were for the hospitalization in 2004 and first page says "voluntary". I doubt the state retains much (except DOC) info for 30 years.
I was mostly curious whether it would even show up. I can legally answer the question as "never committed" as I did on the NICS.

Just wondering what other might have gotten tripped up by

 

[nstassel]

Look at it this way. You think you were in the hospital voluntarily it seems and have paperwork to back that up. You fill out an application so stating. If the police find proof that you were involuntarily committed then you get denied. But if the you were involuntarily committed then you're a prohibited person anyways. Either way you're not getting a gun legally.

 

[GL2020]

Look at it this way. You think you were there voluntarily it seems and have paperwork to back that up. You fill out an application so stating. If the police find proof that you were involuntarily committed then you get denied. But if the you were involuntarily committed then you're a prohibited person anyways. Either way you're not getting a gun legally.

Considering applying for a non-resident before we move just so I know what to expect. The $$ for the course and application and trip into Chelsea (wherever it is) might be worth it. That and it might be easier the make the case to a local PD later.

 

[appraiser]

Lawyer up with a FIREARMS lawyer, you are on dangerous ground due to an involuntary admission to a medical facility.

YOU NEED COMPETENT LEGAL ADVICE ON THE WORDING AND INTENT OF ANY MGL'S and how they apply in YOUR particular situation.

 

[appraiser]

Considering applying for a non-resident before we move just so I know what to expect. The $$ for the course and application and trip into Chelsea (wherever it is) might be worth it. That and it might be easier the make the case to a local PD later.

You apply as a non resident and you are denied, then you have dug a deeper hole.

LAWYER UP

 

[GL2020]

Lawyer up with a FIREARMS lawyer, you are on dangerous ground due to an involuntary admission to a medical facility.

YOU NEED COMPETENT LEGAL ADVICE ON THE WORDING AND INTENT OF ANY MGL'S and how they apply in YOUR particular situation.

I'm not opposed to a lawyer.

But words matter....I was not involuntarily admitted to a facility. That's the weird thing about section 12 (part d I think) is one has to be given the opportunity to "signin". The consequences of not doing so are they can (if they choose) hold you for 3 days in limbo while they 1) evaluate 2) decide whether to get a judge to commit. Number 2 is what an "involuntary admission" (i.e. commitment) is. I admit it's a fine distinction. Commitment means being held legally by order of a judge or appointed board for that purpose. I'm not even convinced a 72 hour hold meets the definition of a commitment....I've read several cases that indicate it's not.

The reason I know "too much" about this process is because I was married to a woman who was certifiable bat-shit crazy. It's why I never had guns in my house when I was married and living with her in MA. It's also part of why I do now that we've been divorced a while and living across state lines. She was in and out of psych hospitals (both voluntary and involuntary) more than a few times, and dangerous
....had restraining orders against her...multiple violations. All of which I think my support an unrestricted LTC.

 

[Picton]

The bottom line is that if what the police find when they investigate your LTC application runs counter to what you've written on that application, you're in a hole. You need to do your best to find out what the police are likely to discover in their investigation.

I bet a lawyer would be a good way to point you in the direction of finding that documentation. You mentioned earlier that a lawyer wanted a "load of paperwork" in order to proceed: that's the kind of paperwork the police investigation is likely to find. If it exists.

You need to do that legwork, as impossible as it may seem to you, and locate every scrap of paper related to this. Because if you think these records no longer exist, and you're wrong, then you're putting your rights in jeopardy.

 

[appraiser]

by your own words, you were "pink slipped" as you were "a danger to myself"

That right there is grounds for denial on suitability and no Judge is going to go against a C.O.P. denial of a license in that case.

 

[appraiser]

PS that is why, when you are in a grey area, you CONSULT A FIREARMS ATTORNEY before submitting the license application.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Lots of records that "can't be found" or "don't exist" actually do exist but in some archive. Someone digging can find them.

I was once paid to research someone's record and ran into "nothing here", so the clerk's office led me to an archive in the courthouse where I could dig thru old paper records that had never been computerized. I did indeed find what I needed for my client, it was just labor-intensive.

Also, PDs have "in house" records that NEVER go away in MA. They could be on paper or in their in-house computer system.

Hiring a lawyer is the only smart thing to do here and give him/her everything you have so they can do their best for you.

 

[appraiser]

The first thing you want, and it is the easiest thing to get, is a copy of ALL medical records from that period of time.

The facility should have them and a request for your medical records has to be honored.

What you are looking for in that pile of papers is any mention of MGL Chapter 123 or other laws , because there is a big difference between forced and conditional voluntary admission to a medical facility.

 

[nstassel]

by your own words, you were "pink slipped" as you were "a danger to myself"

That right there is grounds for denial on suitability and no Judge is going to go against a C.O.P. denial of a license in that case.

This is not a question of suitability really. I agree that if suitability is raised it can be an issue. He's concerned about the disqualification for being involuntarily committed.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

@GL2020 there's a couple members on here who are licensed Mass attorneys who specialize in gun laws, such as @swatgig and @nstassel. @swatgig would be closer to RI to visit, although you'd be better off probably corresponding via email or video conferencing.

If you instead want a lawyer who's licensed in both RI and Mass but based in RI, let me know.

 

[GL2020]

The first thing you want, and it is the easiest thing to get, is a copy of ALL medical records from that period of time.

The facility should have them and a request for your medical records has to be honored.

What you are looking for in that pile of papers is any mention of MGL Chapter 123 or other laws , because there is a big difference between forced and conditional voluntary admission to a medical facility.

Yup, those are the only records I could find. The very first page says "conditional voluntary". The unit intake says "Legal Status" and the voluntary box is checked.

The DMH (for detox in 1991)...I am about as close to 100% convinced those records don't exist as I can be (I sent the request though). That was 100% voluntary...I walked in and said "where do I sign in?", but it was 30 years ago, and the facility has closed. The MIRCS system debuted in 1998. I'm highly skeptical they bothered to digitize the rcords of the 1000's of homeless people who signed themselves in there over the decades.

I actually got a call from someone at the DHM....Woman on the phone says "So, yes, this records request was sent to my desk to research...was this a juvenile matter you were inquiring about?"...OMG...my DOB and the time window of the event was on the request....I was close to 30 at the time....math is hard!

 

[appraiser]

This is not a question of suitability really. I agree that if suitability is raised it can be an issue. He's concerned about the disqualification for being involuntarily committed.

I bow to your professional annd superior knowledge Sir, but for the sake of conversation, hypothetically , if someone was being interviewed by a Licensing Officer and in the course of the conversation the applicant let out, purposely or otherwise, that they were at one point hospitalized and the term "danger to myself" was spoken or inferred , would it become a suitability issue in most towns?

The other issue, is the language on various forms. On a 4473 the disqualification comes from involuntary admission to a mental health facility. If any civil commitment or conditional voluntary admission was to a hospital for treatment of a physical medical condition (that may have had psychological side effects) and not a mental health facility it seems to negate the need to answer in the affirmative .

But IANAL and I would be interested in your personal opinion, knowing it should not be counted on as legal advice

 

[late08]

Sounds like it just might be easier (and cheaper) to stay in RI?

 

[GL2020]

Sounds like it just might be easier (and cheaper) to stay in RI?

In many respects yes....it may be cheaper to stay in RI, except when it comes to taxes. I didn't think my state taxes would vary greatly by crossing the state line when I moved here, but OH MY, they do.
Is it enough to make me stay or go? Probably not on it's own, but it is a factor. Given I can move to a border town and not affect my daily life in any great way, there may be some serious horse trading going on. If MA is going to cause me grief about my guns I may decide being .25 miles on this side of the line makes sense.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

I'm not opposed to a lawyer.

But words matter....I was not involuntarily admitted to a facility. That's the weird thing about section 12 (part d I think) is one has to be given the opportunity to "signin". The consequences of not doing so are they can (if they choose) hold you for 3 days in limbo while they 1) evaluate 2) decide whether to get a judge to commit. Number 2 is what an "involuntary admission" (i.e. commitment) is. I admit it's a fine distinction. Commitment means being held legally by order of a judge or appointed board for that purpose. I'm not even convinced a 72 hour hold meets the definition of a commitment....I've read several cases that indicate it's not.

And that is exactly why you need a lawyer.

Bob

 

[GL2020]

This is not a question of suitability really. I agree that if suitability is raised it can be an issue. He's concerned about the disqualification for being involuntarily committed.

Interesting thing I found while researching...this in an article from Vox (November of 2018), referring to a conversation they had with the PD chief of Belmont

Still, this system is not without shortcomings. Despite generally liking it, Ryan pointed out that police have access to records for state mental health facilities, but not private mental health care records. In his view, if the state is already disclosing state institution records, there’s no reason to treat other records differently just because someone went to a private facility. “If you’re wealthy and go to McLean Hospital on your parent’s dime, nobody ever knows about it. It’s inherently unfair,” he said.

If that is accurate and still the case today, the whole question of suitability/voluntary/involuntary/commitment become moot. This was not a DMH facility

Detox 30 years ago was....but that, as I have mentioned, was 100% voluntary...someone just dropped me at the front door and said "ring the bell".

 

[Matt_SERE]

Hoping to get feedback from people knowledgeable in this area. I’ve heard multiple answers, but mostly speculation

You are getting sound advice from some of the best minds on NES regarding MA gun laws. With your edit it appears you are looking for an echo chamber. For your own sake hire a MA lawyer that knows MA gun laws before you apply.

Best of luck. Matt

 

[late08]

In many respects yes....it may be cheaper to stay in RI, except when it comes to taxes. I didn't think my state taxes would vary greatly by crossing the state line when I moved here, but OH MY, they do.
Is it enough to make me stay or go? Probably not on it's own, but it is a factor. Given I can move to a border town and not affect my daily life in any great way, there may be some serious horse trading going on. If MA is going to cause me grief about my guns I may decide being .25 miles on this side of the line makes sense.

Lots of factors at play! I wasn't trying to be facetious, but sometimes paying a little more vs the hassles dealing with what you might have to deal with just isnt worth it. Life is too short.

The MBTA goes down to N. Kingston now, no? Depending on where you live in RI and where you work or want to work in Mass, there are options that didn't exist even 5 years ago.

Either way good luck!

 

[GL2020]

You are getting sound advice from some of the best minds on NES regarding MA gun laws. With your edit it appears you are looking for an echo chamber. For your own sake hire a MA lawyer that knows MA gun laws before you apply.

Best of luck. Matt

Oh trust me....if we decide to move forward I will get someone who knows their stuff. In the mean time I'm just gathering as much info as possible


Thanks for your help, I do appreciate it