More police protecting and serving

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The woman is clearly suffering from mental illness. There is no rationalizing with someone who is in the midst of a psychological break of that magnitude. The officer continuously tried to de-escalate the situation with no success. I do not believe there was anything that he could say or do that would have made any difference to this woman. If anything, their initial restraint from applying any force, specifically the taser, was the downfall. Once she charged the officer with the knife there was no other choice than using the firearm as she was now out of range for the taser. This is a tragic situation and outcome, but it is not an excessive force issue.

Cue boot licker comments in 3...2...1.........
There is merit to the suggestion of 'social workers' being available to respond to these situtations.

The problem is, how much are you going to pay them? Where does that money come from? You'd still need officers there to defend the social worker. If it's low pay, what quality of social worker are you going to get, and in my experience, will they even show up in a 'reasonable' timeframe. My experience is with CPS, it took hours for someone to show up.
 

Rat187

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@VetteGirlMA ....I very much understand how you see it as a mother (I'm assuming), but having said that, the very last thing a human tasked with a 'license to kill' wants to do is to shoot a woman, especially with one babies at her side.

She didn't have an AK, but at the very end she got within 6' of his fleeing patrol's partner neck. I suspect if the shooter was your son, you would see it in a different light.
 

LTCRN

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There is merit to the suggestion of 'social workers' being available to respond to these situtations.

The problem is, how much are you going to pay them? Where does that money come from? You'd still need officers there to defend the social worker. If it's low pay, what quality of social worker are you going to get, and in my experience, will they even show up in a 'reasonable' timeframe. My experience is with CPS, it took hours for someone to show up.
All it's going to take is one social worker getting hurt, even lightly, and this brilliant concept is going to go out the window. They all are going to resign and that's if one is dumb enough to sign up for this in the first place. A plainclothes police officer that is wearing a bullet resistant vest, with a sidearm and training, is best and this situation clearly proves it.
 

appraiser

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I talk with an EMT on another board who is a SWAT type medic, he goes in close to them and he is armed and in protective gear.

He tells some horror stories, and he has the benefit of being sworn and armed.

What is a Social Worker going to do?

Since they would be working with the Police, and by extension the Government, there is no expectation of privacy so anything said to them would be admissible correct?

What are they going to do read them the Miranda Warning before interacting with them?

I'd love to hear from some Firefighters or EMT's on the board (to the extent you are safely able to comment) on the topic of sh*tstorms you have been dragged into dealing with someone not in their right mind they had to interact with on a call.
 

drgrant

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All it's going to take is one social worker getting hurt, even lightly, and this brilliant concept is going to go out the window. They all are going to resign and that's if one is dumb enough to sign up for this in the first place. A plainclothes police officer that is wearing a bullet resistant vest, with a sidearm and training, is best and this situation clearly proves it.

IMHO it's not unfeasible but without getting said mental health worker and being able to train them up into a cop? Forget it. I also think there isnt a sufficiently large enough pool of people to pull this off. Like you need people that are a little bit crazy to do this. I know a guy in mental health field that deals with nutbags that would probably be perfect for the role, but there are not too many people like him. He's also way more intelligent than most of his cohorts in that field as well.
 

In God We Trust

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The woman is clearly suffering from mental illness. There is no rationalizing with someone who is in the midst of a psychological break of that magnitude. The officer continuously tried to de-escalate the situation with no success. I do not believe there was anything that he could say or do that would have made any difference to this woman. If anything, their initial restraint from applying any force, specifically the taser, was the downfall. Once she charged the officer with the knife there was no other choice than using the firearm as she was now out of range for the taser. This is a tragic situation and outcome, but it is not an excessive force issue.

Cue boot licker comments in 3...2...1.........
EFB652EA-FA41-4BA3-87B6-41B9D6D9A7D8.jpegPaging bonsinim. Please come to the service desk.
 

GM-GUY

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Random rewind. Does anyone know what happened with the cop that shot the mentally ill guy and his elderly parents in Walmart? (I think it was Walmart?)

No indictment but the cop ‘did violate policy’ and now the chief gets to decide punishment. Usual Grand Jury transcripts are not being released and the DA has dropped it as the Grand Jury has spoken.

10 shots, hit both parents and the adult kid, killed the kid.


 

Nick Leduc

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Sorry, not going to agree this time.
They responded to a call.
She was openly carrying a kitchen knife.
They tried to talk with her.
She immediately went all psycho, but the cops held back, even when she advanced on them.
They tried non-lethal, her response was to chase a cop with a knife and pretty clear intent to harm/kill him.
She was shot just a step or two from catching up to the cop. What do you think she would have done if they hadn't shot her.

It's regrettable but not unexpected.
And it's notable that when someone becomes this unhinged it is often the kids that end up dead.
I agree that the 2 officers that responded are good police officers, they tried their best in a shit situation and they did what needed to be done. This was a good shot.

One thing I disagree with is how you say "she was open carrying a kitchen knife". Who cares. If that was the only concern of the caller, the police response should have been "mind your own business ". But because CA and scary knives, they have to show up.

I know the article says she was walking in the street. The road looks like a back road with minimal traffic. I walk with my kids daily on similar roads. I spend 75% of the time trying to get them to just stay on the side.

I mean POSSIBLY, the situation could have gone better if they rolled up, not gotten out of the car with the window down and said "ma'am, we've gotten a call from a concerned citizen. Can you just stay out if traffic". Who knows, maybe she wouldn't have gone crazy by that. Or she could have. And if she did, it would have been the same result.

The only TRUE way to prevent shooting her to death and still respond to the call is roll up and without saying a word, unload on her with shotgun bean bags until she is down and sort it out later. Everyone wins. That, or someone needs to create a pre-crime departments like minority report.
 

42!

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How many tries should they get at defusing before plugging someone? Try 1, failed, try 2, failed, try 3, failed. Shoot. Look I'm just pointing out a different point of view. I honestly wouldn't want to be in that cops shoes right now.
They kept trying until she was on the verge of killing a cop, when she was just feet away they finally used deadly force. So you're suggestion is they should have tried more? So what, keep trying after how many dead cops? If that cop was your son you'd be saying thank god his partner was there to save him.
IMHO it's not unfeasible but without getting said mental health worker and being able to train them up into a cop? Forget it. I also think there isnt a sufficiently large enough pool of people to pull this off. Like you need people that are a little bit crazy to do this. I know a guy in mental health field that deals with nutbags that would probably be perfect for the role, but there are not too many people like him. He's also way more intelligent than most of his cohorts in that field as well.
I used to work with some highly regarded and well published phds in mental health, and they openly admitted that "the mental health industry attracts a disproportionate number of the mentally ill". They know this and yet suggest putting these same people in a high stress life or death situation. Ya, that should go well.
 

LTCRN

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I used to work with some highly regarded and well published phds in mental health, and they openly admitted that "the mental health industry attracts a disproportionate number of the mentally ill". They know this and yet suggest putting these same people in a high stress life or death situation. Ya, that should go well.
Or......You work with them long enough, you become one!
 
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I agree that the 2 officers that responded are good police officers, they tried their best in a shit situation and they did what needed to be done. This was a good shot.

One thing I disagree with is how you say "she was open carrying a kitchen knife". Who cares. If that was the only concern of the caller, the police response should have been "mind your own business ". But because CA and scary knives, they have to show up.

I know the article says she was walking in the street. The road looks like a back road with minimal traffic. I walk with my kids daily on similar roads. I spend 75% of the time trying to get them to just stay on the side.

I mean POSSIBLY, the situation could have gone better if they rolled up, not gotten out of the car with the window down and said "ma'am, we've gotten a call from a concerned citizen. Can you just stay out if traffic". Who knows, maybe she wouldn't have gone crazy by that. Or she could have. And if she did, it would have been the same result.

The only TRUE way to prevent shooting her to death and still respond to the call is roll up and without saying a word, unload on her with shotgun bean bags until she is down and sort it out later. Everyone wins. That, or someone needs to create a pre-crime departments like minority report.
Then it gets posted in this thread and "OMG WARGLE WARGLE" they unloaded on her with beanbags.

I've been involved in one suicide by cop incident, or similar situation. It sucked for everyone involved. The only real saving grace of the situation was the other guy shot first, from a barricade so he was a willing participant, and we got lucky.
 

SKumar

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Check this out. "We are from the government and we're here to help you". They had no legal authority to 1. harass him 2. detain him 3. arrest him and bring him to the station. They release him and charge him with impeding roadway.

 
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Check this out. "We are from the government and we're here to help you". They had no legal authority to 1. harass him 2. detain him 3. arrest him and bring him to the station. They release him and charge him with impeding roadway.

The other side of the coin, he's having some sort of mental break. Turns up a popsicle the next morning. Family sues the city for failure to act. The encounter is on film obviously, so where does 'due diligence' end? Where does the liability of the city end?

I'd have offered him a ride and called it a night.
 

Woodsy

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Check this out. "We are from the government and we're here to help you". They had no legal authority to 1. harass him 2. detain him 3. arrest him and bring him to the station. They release him and charge him with impeding roadway.

That was not necessary and a simple drive up and ask “You all good” and then Drive on. Officers were in the wrong and the guy should sue the town. Anytime I hear an officer says “I’m trying to help” while simultaneously forcing the person down and cuffing them, I call foul
 

rommel

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The other side of the coin, he's having some sort of mental break. Turns up a popsicle the next morning. Family sues the city for failure to act. The encounter is on film obviously, so where does 'due diligence' end? Where does the liability of the city end?

I'd have offered him a ride and called it a night.
Maybe the underlying problem is the cops inability to find the person, ask if they are ok, ask if they need assistance or a ride and write in the report his answers and what actions they did based on his answers. I plow snow for my town and nobody walks on the sidewalks when there is snow or it is snowing. Maybe the problem is in the training where the cop felt it was her duty to get out of the car, follow and harass the dude. I am certainly no cop or mental health worker but the dude seemed fine to me and was talking coherently when he did talk.

But I will tell you exactly where due diligence ends, it ends where his rights begin. If the city can not be sued over seriously egregious acts of police then I think they can find a way to get out of acknowledging someone's rights.
 
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I am certainly no cop or mental health worker but the dude seemed fine to me and was talking coherently when he did talk.

But I will tell you exactly where due diligence ends, it ends where his rights begin. If the city can not be sued over seriously egregious acts of police then I think they can find a way to get out of acknowledging someone's rights.
I bolded the relevant part, neither are those cops. The guy's speech seemed off to me, but it was cold enough to be snowing and he was wearing a T-shirt. I could easily say his speech is messed up due to freezing his nuts off. I know I don't speak smoothly when I'm shivering. This could have been resolved with offering a ride, or just follow him and keep him safe. Make the block every couple of minutes.

I wish the last part was as simple as you wish it to be. This was a no-win situation, cops put there in the middle of it. Either outcome could have resulted in a civil lawsuit. I'll go look up what happened to that kid who caught himself in the minivan a while back, if I can find something I'll come back and post it. It will be interesting to see if any liability was passed down to the city. I'm no lawyer, but I've seen some pretty 'off the wall' stuff get thrown against the wall to get a paycheck. Some were warranted, some were not, in my opinion.

Edit: That was easier than I thought:

In this case, the cops would have had to break windows to get into the van to check if it was empty. I put this on about the same level as the guy walking in the snow. I ask again, at what point is liability covered? Would it have been reasonable to think the kid folded himself into the car seats? Maybe today, the windows get broken, with hindsight and all.
 
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I bolded the relevant part, neither are those cops. The guy's speech seemed off to me, but it was cold enough to be snowing and he was wearing a T-shirt. I could easily say his speech is messed up due to freezing his nuts off. I know I don't speak smoothly when I'm shivering. This could have been resolved with offering a ride, or just follow him and keep him safe. Make the block every couple of minutes.

I wish the last part was as simple as you wish it to be. This was a no-win situation, cops put there in the middle of it. Either outcome could have resulted in a civil lawsuit. I'll go look up what happened to that kid who caught himself in the minivan a while back, if I can find something I'll come back and post it. It will be interesting to see if any liability was passed down to the city. I'm no lawyer, but I've seen some pretty 'off the wall' stuff get thrown against the wall to get a paycheck. Some were warranted, some were not, in my opinion.

Edit: That was easier than I thought:

In this case, the cops would have had to break windows to get into the van to check if it was empty. I put this on about the same level as the guy walking in the snow. I ask again, at what point is liability covered? Would it have been reasonable to think the kid folded himself into the car seats? Maybe today, the windows get broken, with hindsight and all.

What in gods name are you talking about? How are the two even somewhat comparable? I'd be hard pressed to find two more dissimilar incidents. Some guy walking home minding his own business compared to a kid trapped in a car begging for help. Police don't do much of anything about the kid who called them asking for help vs police arresting a guy who doesn't want any help. Yet you think these things are on the same level? That's absurd.

What's equally as absurd the opinion that cops should be concerned with liability (that in reality, they don't even have to begin with) as opposed to just doing the right thing. This mentality is what keeps the steady steam of videos such as this, and a never ending flow of jackboots with badges.
 
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What in gods name are you talking about? How are the two even somewhat comparable? I'd be hard pressed to find two more dissimilar incidents. Some guy walking home minding his own business compared to a kid trapped in a car begging for help. Police don't do much of anything about the kid who called them asking for help vs police arresting a guy who doesn't want any help. Yet you think these things are on the same level? That's absurd.

What's equally as absurd the opinion that cops should be concerned with liability (that in reality, they don't even have to begin with) as opposed to just doing the right thing. This mentality is what keeps the steady steam of videos such as this, and a never ending flow of jackboots with badges.
They are similar, I'm not sure what 'you' are talking about. The 'assistance' provided by the police are opposite ends of the spectrum.

Yes, absolutely, completely, LEO's are concerned with liability. I can't change a tire for someone by policy. Why? Because if I screw up and a wheel falls off, my agency is liable. If I give someone a ride from a broken down car, I have to notify chain of command. If it's a female, I have someone else at least meet me along the way to a safe location. Why? So she can't claim I raped her or some such. Yes, it's happened before. She didn't know the person driving was talking to a supervisor during the 'assault'.
 
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So they’re similar by being the opposite? Are you sure you know what being similar means? 🤣
FFS, they are both calls for assistance, the POLICE response was opposite. One obviously didn't do enough, the kid died. This one they went too far. You think there isn't a possibility of a connection? You think lawyers for city's haven't looked at the kid's case and said, 'maybe we need to do more on these types of calls'. I'm not saying this is the case since I have zero connection, but I've heard of the case, there is a chance these cops did as well. I don't know what I would have done different in the kid's case. Too much I don't know about what actually happened. I don't think I would have gone as far as they did with the guy walking down the street. As I already stated.
 
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FFS, they are both calls for assistance,

Wrong again. Only one was a call for assistance. Someone calling the police on someone else because they think someone might need help but really have no idea is not similar at all to someone calling the police because they themselves need immediate help. Saying that’s a call for assistance is a stretch at best.

But you are right about the response. The responses were opposites and opposites in an exactly backwards way. They didn’t care to do anything about the kid who really needed their help to not die and made sure to get heavily involved with the guy who didn’t need them for anything.


You don’t know what you’d have done differently about the van incident? Someone’s says they are trapped in a van and suffocating and just doing a drive by is good solid police work? JFC.
 
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