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Montana ARD - a legal way to override ANY CCW regulations anywhere?

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Kill it if it's a dupe, but I haven't seen it here.

Looks like some NYC lawyer came up with an idea to create an army of fee-to-join Montana Auxilary Reserve Deputies who would have the right to carry anywhere in the US under Title 18 USC Sect. 926B Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (also referred to as HR218).

What is this, a scam? A golden loophole? Just imagine, every NYC or MA resident would be able to carry anything they want anywhere. Is that a paradise or a quick way to lose money (and get into the pen)?

http://ccwforall.com/pages/documents_files/Montana_ARD_Proposal.pdf
http://ccwforall.com/index.php
 
I love Montana! Im not gonna be the one to put this idea to the test, but god bless those that are looking out for our rights!
 
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I just read the FAQs on that page... seems like it may be another loophole for MA residents to get non approved hardware also. Here's to hoping there's some truth to the possibility!
 
I would not get to excited about this honestly..... even if it is "OK" it not.... if you know what I mean ( kinda like open carry in mass )
 
So, this has me thinking.... if this means they will give me a letterhead so I can have post may 86' samples I will gladly for over the $1000 they require!!!
 
I would do this in a second if it turns into reality.

For the price of saved on pinning 4 AR 15 stocks, buying 20 post ban mags, and 3 new Glocks- this is a great deal.
 
The day montana approves it, the following day the feds update their law to specifically exclude this new class of deputies.
 
Do you really think that the feds could quickly rewrite a law like that and get it passed through? Somehow I dont think that there would be enough agreement at that level to completely rewrite a law like that based off something that only some people would even hear about, and even less would actually do.
 
I don't know, how much will the feds really care? Its the states getting "screwed" (not realy, but thats how they would see it), not the feds. And really, short of rewriting a federal law is there anything they could do (within, say, 6 months to a year) without involving the SCOTUS?? I'll be honest, this seems like a too good to be true situation, but one that follows the Letter of the law (maybe not the intent, but F-um if they can't take a joke).
 
I just read the FAQs on that page... seems like it may be another loophole for MA residents to get non approved hardware also. Here's to hoping there's some truth to the possibility!

No it's not. There would be no AWB exemption for people with this badge in MA, because MA would likely never, ever consider it legit, at least not beyond hat LEOSA would force it to be (assuming this bill would produce officers that are even LEOSA compliant).

-Mike
 
All I know is it would be interesting but there would still be problems with these badges due to state level abusers. If you were ever caught CCWing on this in NY/NJ/MD, expect to sit in a room at a police station for a stupidly long time until they "verify" your creds. They will make the whole experience as miserable as possible so you will not want to carry in their communist s**tholes ever again. If that harassment is happening under LEOSA now, these badges would be no different. At least you would probably avoid prosecution, though, again, assuming the creds are 100% LEOSA compliant.

-Mike
 
No it's not. There would be no AWB exemption for people with this badge in MA, because MA would likely never, ever consider it legit, at least not beyond hat LEOSA would force it to be (assuming this bill would produce officers that are even LEOSA compliant).

-Mike


So, does that mean LEOSA qualified people in Mass from other states can not bring in post ban high capacity mags?
 
I just read the FAQs on that page... seems like it may be another loophole for MA residents to get non approved hardware also...

Assuming you're referencing non-compliant handguns...

Federal law requires an "intention of making a home" to establish residency and purchase handguns...

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State.....

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?


If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#state-residency

IANAL, but I don't see how changing Montana law could circumvent this.



So, does that mean LEOSA qualified people in Mass from other states can not bring in post ban high capacity mags?

Generally, no. They can only be possessed by:

1. LEOs for the "purposes of law enforcement", or
2. Retired LEOs, if received from their agency upon retirement.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131m
 
So, does that mean LEOSA qualified people in Mass from other states can not bring in post ban high capacity mags?

LEOSA doesn't specify broad bypasses to local laws which exist. It only "gets" you carry. It doesn't specify anything further than that... so I would think the AWB crap would still apply.

A common example cited is those carrying under LEOSA are not exempt from the NJ JHP ban. So LEOSA carriers are crippled in NJ just as badly as the other 5 regular folks in NJ that happen to have carry permits.

-Mike
 
LEOSA doesn't specify broad bypasses to local laws which exist. It only "gets" you carry. It doesn't specify anything further than that... so I would think the AWB crap would still apply.

A common example cited is those carrying under LEOSA are not exempt from the NJ JHP ban. So LEOSA carriers are crippled in NJ just as badly as the other 5 regular folks in NJ that happen to have carry permits.

-Mike


That's a bummer.

I would still like to be an ARN if I can carry in NYC and NJ (without Hollow Points or +15 mags).
 
LEOSA doesn't specify broad bypasses to local laws which exist. It only "gets" you carry. It doesn't specify anything further than that... so I would think the AWB crap would still apply.

A common example cited is those carrying under LEOSA are not exempt from the NJ JHP ban. So LEOSA carriers are crippled in NJ just as badly as the other 5 regular folks in NJ that happen to have carry permits.

-Mike

Mike,

You left your way-back machine set to a couple of years ago! [laugh]

HR218/LEOSA was modified significantly on Oct. 12, 2010 and superseded the "type of ammo" restrictions that NJ was enforcing. However, LEOSA is still MUTE on hi-cap mags.

That said, LEOSA as passed by the US Gov't has NEVER BEEN ACCEPTED IN MA as it was written. MA implemented numerous provisions in 515 CMR 6.00 and 501 CMR 13.00 which do not comply with Fed Law. This was done intentionally.

That said, there is currently no re-write in process to the above CMRs to even acknowledge the significant changes in the Fed Law passed last year. I figure that they will drag their feet on any changes for at least another 3 years or so. I corresponded with the EOPS atty responsible for starting the ball rolling in any re-write and she told me that it's not even on their radar. Both she and Ron Glidden acknowledged that it is a "long, drawn out process" . . . I'm sure that is so because they didn't want the law to pass in the first place.

-----------------

All that said, I printed but haven't read the Montana proposal yet.

It would have to pass in Montana into law first.

The Fed Law requires annual qualification to the standards of either the state issuing the credentials or the state you live in (for retirees) . . . yet MA CMR PROHIBITS any MSP LEOSA Certified Instructor from qualifying ANYONE other than a active/retiree from a MA Municipal or MA SP agency, so you would never be able to qualify in MA . . . and thus would not be compliant with LEOSA unless you traveled to Montana annually.

MA would probably interpret it as illegitimate, just like all those Middlesex County Reserve Deputies running around with badges/IDs currently (you know who you are [laugh]).
 
I think I'm going to subscribe to this thread........

Why?

Because it has a different feel than those "Gunmaker coming to Mass!" threads. This almost seems like it could rock the boat and change things. Also, with my imminent move to NH, and if Montana passes it.....it could mean the WORLD to me!
 
The Fed Law requires annual qualification to the standards of either the state issuing the credentials or the state you live in (for retirees) . . . yet MA CMR PROHIBITS any MSP LEOSA Certified Instructor from qualifying ANYONE other than a active/retiree from a MA Municipal or MA SP agency, so you would never be able to qualify in MA . . . and thus would not be compliant with LEOSA unless you traveled to Montana annually.

Not if Montana licensed persons who are not MA LEOSA certified instructors from performing the qualification. LEOSA states "to the standard of", not "in the state of".

Games like this that attempt to outsmart the intent of the law rarely succeed. It doesn't really matter what the clear plain language of the law means - the government (courts) will decide it means something else; change it, or simply adopt a policy that everyone who attempts to use this technique will have to fund a trial. LEOSA was "improved" in only a few short years under an anti-gun president. My guess is one year, two tops, before a loophole like this is legislatively closed in the event the court uphold that such purchases LEOSA status is valid. The only way "back door" LEOSA status will work is if persons in power use it to do favors for special, highly placed people - not as a de-facto national CCW for ordinary folk.

The chances the courts would accept that someone paying $1000 in return for which they received a $1 salary and special privileges was actually "employed" are also slim.

This sort of game is not much different than the state of MA declaring that any location with an internet connection is an "educational institution" since that connection can be used to complete credit granting courses from accredited degree granting institutions, and therefore require carry permission from said institutions.

If you look at LEOSA's requirements (original and current), much of it appears to be an attempt to preclude people from gaming the system and limiting it to legitimate career law enforcement officers - hence requirements like "pension eligible" in the original verison; 15 (now 10) year requirements for retiree status; "employed" rather than "sworn" status; etc.

One example of the govt shutting down creative parsing of the law is the old Michigan permit system that recognized non-resident licenses, but didn't specify "for non-residents only". Before MI permit reform, only persons of privilege, power and influence could obtain a resident permit. So, guess what? Some MI residents got creative and started mail ordering FL permits that clearly were valid (in fact, I think a MI legislator suggested it on the floor when arguing for permit reform). The AG's office declared non-resident permits invalid in MI claiming a non-gun decision that contained the wording "the law shall not be interpreted to imply an absurdity" meant that resident permits were invalid since bypassing the "special people only" procedure of MI law for residents would be absurd. I don't know if any prosecutions were brought against MI residents using out of state permits, but the AG's position was that charges should be filed against such persons.
 
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So, this has me thinking.... if this means they will give me a letterhead so I can have post may 86' samples I will gladly for over the $1000 they require!!!

What firearms can I carry using these credentials?
Pretty much anything you want, assault weapons, properly taxed sbr/abs/aow, rifles, shotguns, high capacity magazines, anything purchased through interstate commerce for which proper tax had been paid.... With the specific exemption of machine guns and silencers.
 
Do you really think that the feds could quickly rewrite a law like that and get it passed through? Somehow I dont think that there would be enough agreement at that level to completely rewrite a law like that based off something that only some people would even hear about, and even less would actually do.

I have a high degree of confidence that within months after this proposal was enacted, the Feds would find some way to quash it.

Personally, I doubt it will fly with the Montana legislature.

Here is another aspect of the issue, and I hate to sound like a naysayer but it will only take one or two wannabe mall ninjas with their ARD credentials and their CCW badges to do something really stupid, and then it would squash it for the rest of us which could be the catalyst that would bring about changes in the current LEOSA legislation. The Empire will also strike back in lovely places like Massachusetts, Chicago, and NYC with all kinds of arrests and court cases.

If it happens fine, I am all for it, but I am not holding my breath.
 
I checked out their website and the last update was from Oct 10th 2010. I'd do it if it ever gets off the ground, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
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