modifying guns and choice of ammo (any concerns?)

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I was just wondering what everyone's take on it was. I personally haven't modified any of my guns. The only thing not factory on any gun i own is maybe the sights. I know a lot of times we talk about getting trigger jobs done to make the trigger pull lighter or smoother, modifying the grip, and recently since I have been checking out the LC9 so people have talked about removing things like the magazine safety disconnect. I know all this is going to void any warranty but is 100% legal but whats everyone's take on it? I know some ppl say if you have to use your gun in a self defense situation if you modified it at all they could use that against you in court. To date though I will say I have never heard of this happening to anyone in MA or some other state but I'm sure I miss a lot.

On a side note:

I thought of this after a conversation I had with co-worker this past week. They took a concealed carry course in which the instructor for the organization and a lawyer was on hand to teach the course. Now I carry Federal HST 9mm in my 9mm and regular Federal Hydrashoks in my .380. Not a big deal I got both from FS when four season's sold it. Then last winter my co-worker and I bought some more of each. Well in the class they recommended not using HST's because it says law enforcement ammunition on the box. My first reaction was why and the reasoning was that if you ever had to use it in a self defense situation a prosecuting attorney could spin the fact you decided to use "law enforcement" ammunition in the box. I kind of felt it was ridiculous and a little surprised a concealed carry course would even teach this.

I kind of let it go but the more I thought about it, the more I thought well where does it stop. One could make an argument that all JHP is for law enforcement. Then other situation ran into my head well what if you use FMJ's is the next thing going to be you would get charged with endangering the public because of the potential of a through and through, or how bout if you were home and went for your shot gun as opposed to a 9mm. Would you get charged with excessive use of deadly force? In the case of my co-working he is trading for some speer gold dot +P, which I guess in itself in my opinion someone could argue the fact of why someone chose +P over a standard load.

So, is modifying a gun and choice of ammo a concern for anyone? Personally I can see where people are coming from if they are against it and even though I haven't modified any of my guns I just thing if your use of force was justified, the gun you used or the ammo you chose isn't going to be a deciding factor. On the flip side wouldn't it suck to be the example.
 
If you end up in court, the prosecutor is going to try to make you look bad no matter what you carry for a gun, ammo, etc. It's his job.

Carry what you think will keep you alive, and worry about the court stuff afterward.
 
If you end up in court, the prosecutor is going to try to make you look bad no matter what you carry for a gun, ammo, etc. It's his job.

Carry what you think will keep you alive, and worry about the court stuff afterward.

The whole thing just seemed kind of silly to me especially the ammo. I was just surprised they would recommend not using something like HST's because of that a given its one of the better choices out there.
 
I've asked similar questions regarding the law and certain kinds of ammo. All of trying answers that I got points that there is no specific law that forbids a citizen from having federal HST. The manufacturer puts "law enforcement " only because they want the ammo to be used by law enforcement.
 
The instructors dropped a steaming pile of crap on you.

I think some of the instructors out there try to pad their egos with this crap. They are not lawyers. They have never tried a case. They have never appeared in a court room to defend themselves. If instructors stuck to the course material rather than spewing "things they learned or heard on the internet" the students would be far better off.

If you use your gun in self-defense, it will not matter what trigger, grips, ammo etc that you used.

You shot someone.

The courts, the jury, the lawyers, and the cops are going to treat you just like the local crack dealer that did a drive by.
Ammo selection and a trigger job is the least of your problems.
 
That "law enforcement" statement is found on various boxes of ammo from different companies. If you do end up in court, they'll be presented as "high power citizen slaying murder rounds +p+". They can always argue the point that it was sold in MA, it's not wrong to have it.
 
That "law enforcement" statement is found on various boxes of ammo from different companies. If you do end up in court, they'll be presented as "high power citizen slaying murder rounds +p+". They can always argue the point that it was sold in MA, it's not wrong to have it.

Well some of the HST and regular Hydrashok's were bought in MA and some was bought online. The stuff bought in MA is probably 2 years old. Honestly I don't even think i could tell you which was which anymore.
 
Unless you carry the box label with you at all times, I'm wondering how anyone would even know. It's not stamped on the side of the cartridge, or the projectile. Lots of forensic work to differentiate.
 
Any half-ass decent attorney would say in your defence:"The defendant used X handgun loaded with Y ammo because this is what the police use. He deferred to the LEOs as experts on all firearms-related matters".
 
Ill modify my gun and carry exploding tracer hollow-points if thats what it takes to keep me alive.
First rule, fight as if you may die, do what it takes to make it to the courtroom. Does you no good if your dead and can't fight the legal battle. For that matter, 180 gr. 357 Mag. hollow points serve me just fine.
 
There has been a good bit written about this topic by Mas Ayoob and others. Some of it is useful, a lot is paranoia.

Personally I am in agreement with authors who caution against carrying guns with things like skull emblems on the grip panels. It's not going to look good to a jury and easily helps to paint you as someone fascinated by death and killing. The same thing can be said about guns that look like they came off a pimp's dead body.

Members of a jury will have the gun in the jury room. Many of them in places like Mass. may never have touched a gun before. So anything that makes the gun look especially scary like the grip panels a lot of people choose isn't going to be helpful in weighing whether or not you were negligent or used force in excess of what was needed or "were just itching for a chance to shoot someone."

Modifications like better sights, polishing feed ramps or other things that make the gun more reliable and/or easier to shoot shouldn't get you in any trouble at all. I would say the same for a magazine disconnect fix, because again it is very easy to show a jury why such a device is a bad idea in a carry weapon.

As for not using HSTs, I think that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Readily available, common defensive ammo is somehow going to get you in trouble? Your expert witness will testify as to exactly why such ammo is a proper thing in a defensive gun. I could see an argument against hand-loads, particularly in a state like Mass. where "making your own bullets" might be considered eccentric. But the idea that it's perfectly ok for a LE agency to use those but it's not ok for you to use those when it's completely legal, seems far-fetched in the extreme.

I've read some stuff that a very light trigger job might get you into trouble because opposing counsel could use that to show that you were "negligent" and a 'hair trigger" is "inherently unsafe." I don't think I agree with that.

Remember that in a civil or criminal trial, it isn't just one thing that is going to hang you. It's the totality of the circumstances that a jury will weigh.

In a crystal-clear case of self defense you aren't likely to get charged in the first place. It's the shoot that isn't as clear, where there may be real questions about whether you had the right to employ deadly force that is going to see you at trial. It's THOSE cases where things like the gun you used, your postings on the internet (you can count on them being used at trial if they can be found) will be used to show you as someone pre-disposed to use unlawful force, which will help them make the case that the shoot wasn't legit.

And in murky places like Mass. where you have a duty to retreat, damn near any shoot can be questioned.
 
Well stated, I forgot about Mas's comments on the grip panels.

It's true however, it wouldn't look good for a carry gun sitting on an evidence table to be covered in flaming death skulls. :)
 
If you changed out your 1911 grips to some blinged out skull grips that say HITMAN or Vigilante on them or shell casings with the victims name engraved in them scattered about you may have a harder time in court but everything else is a moot point.
 
If you end up in court, the prosecutor is going to try to make you look bad no matter what you carry for a gun, ammo, etc. It's his job.

Carry what you think will keep you alive, and worry about the court stuff afterward.

I would tend to agree with EC's assessment.

The lawers are going to try and spin it any way they can. Your lawyer well claim self defence and there lawyer will claim "misunderstood youth" but in the end it will be up to the jury.

There is no doubt that when opposing council holds up this, and shows it to the jury: #1

500px-CharlesParker1878Shotgun.jpg



it will probably to better for you than if he holds up this: #2


mesa_tactical_evil_590.jpg


But that will be the least of your worries. If justified, being tried with #2 beats being dead with #1 in your hands.
 
I would tend to agree with EC's assessment.

The lawers are going to try and spin it any way they can. Your lawyer well claim self defence and there lawyer will claim "misunderstood youth" but in the end it will be up to the jury.

There is no doubt that when opposing council holds up this, and shows it to the jury: #1

500px-CharlesParker1878Shotgun.jpg

There's no ducks or other animals engraved on the sides of it though. You need that to pull off the whole "I'm normally a fudd and would never think about everrrrr shooting anyone, but I was backed into a corner..." motif. [laugh]

-Mike
 
Best yet, move to a state like FLA or TX. where it's much less of a chance you will have to defend yourself on a defensive shoot. South Carolina is not far away for me, less than 2 yrs.
 
Best yet, move to a state like FLA or TX. where it's much less of a chance you will have to defend yourself on a defensive shoot. South Carolina is not far away for me, less than 2 yrs.

NH is a real possibility for me sometime in the next 5 years I would say. TX is also a possibility.
 
There's no ducks or other animals engraved on the sides of it though. You need that to pull off the whole "I'm normally a fudd and would never think about everrrrr shooting anyone, but I was backed into a corner..." motif. [laugh]

-Mike

That's an awesome idea.

I'm going to have my carry gun engraved with ducks on one grip and a Black Lab on the other. If I ever have to go to court, I'll grow a beard and wear a tweed jacket with elbow patches and carry a pipe.
 
My Glock 17 has had a mild trigger job and I carry Wichester Ranger LE ammo.

I honestly don't GAF what any prosecutor might think about it.
 
I carry the exact combination that you mentioned. I have a S&W M&P with both a DCAEK and RAM with HST's. It also doesn't have a Mag safety. The safety didn't bother me at first, but then I was practicing drawing one day, and the mag hit the floor. The mag disconnect came out the same time the APEX kit went in. My trigger is still heavier that a SA gun, , and the HST's I picked up at Four Seasons do not say "LEO Only". They were a batch of over run from a LE order (at least that's what FS said when they had them for $19/box). There's pros and cons to every configuration. The DA's job is to make you look bad, your lawyers job is to make you look good. Its the totality of the situation (or a sucky lawyer) that lands you in jail. Buy it and modify it so its suits you, but is still safe enough for YOU to carry. Whats right for me, might not be right for you. If you want to get technical, the DA could say that you chose a semi auto so you could easily shoot the poor guy who was turning his life around as many times as possible before he hit the ground, and the fact that you left the house with the gun shows intent to kill. They can and will say what ever they think will get the jury to convict you. Find the setup that works for YOU, and screw what they might think. At least you'll be alive to refute the charges if it comes to that.
 
I personally believe that a trigger job and JHP ammo means less rounds in the air in a more controlled fashion.
 
unless you tip your defense ammo in snake venom i would think you are ok. if you are on trial im sure the circumstance will matter more than the type of ammo you were carrying! although as previously stated any scarface/punisher or other type of embellishment would not benefit you!
 
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