MN LTC/CCW holder killed over broken tail light

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Cops profile by traffic infractions, broken tail light or cracked windshield or even crossing the yellow line is just the book reason they stopped you. Then they figure out what you are guilty of.
 

Picton

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The highway full of people waiting for your fat white ass (and the barrels it's chained to) to be dragged out of the center lane are, at that point in time, the most likely members of society to fully support extrajudicial execution.
And I'd probably be one of them, but I (along with that highway full of people) am not wearing a badge. I don't represent the full coercive power of the State. Crucially, I don't possess the power of arrest, detention, and imprisonment SHORT OF shooting someone four times. For nothing.

Im different than a cop. It's horrible if I shoot someone with no justification, but at least it's just me doing it. If a cop does it, it's the State doing it. And yes, that makes it worse.
 

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And I'd probably be one of them, but I (along with that highway full of people) am not wearing a badge. I don't represent the full coercive power of the State. Crucially, I don't possess the power of arrest, detention, and imprisonment SHORT OF shooting someone four times. For nothing.

Im different than a cop. It's horrible if I shoot someone with no justification, but at least it's just me doing it. If a cop does it, it's the State doing it. And yes, that makes it worse.
+1
 

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I don't know if there have been any formal studies on the topic, but I suspect that licensed (or constitutional carry) civilians in general exercise more restraint than cops in resolving a conflict with a gun since they are held to a higher standard (arrest, not off duty with pay; mortgage house to hire attorney, rather than have the union provide one; etc.)
 

Mark from MA

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She moved enough to grab her phone and start filming. Given the cops reaction I'm pretty sure if one moved VERY slowly, intently and stated their intentions to HELP the situation instead of letting the guy bleed out there would at least be a chance until the paramedics arrived.
Given the cops reaction? I wouldn't trust letting a silent fart out without him blowing me away.

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I don't know if there have been any formal studies on the topic, but I suspect that licensed (or constitutional carry) civilians in general exercise more restraint than cops in resolving a conflict with a gun since they are held to a higher standard (arrest, not off duty with pay; mortgage house to hire attorney, rather than have the union provide one; etc.)

Any studies like that would have been quashed by the media or disproven by obamas executive actions on gun violence
 

mibro

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Any studies like that would have been quashed by the media or disproven by obamas executive actions on gun violence
I remember some kind of study being posted on NES within the last year or so showing that licensed gun owners are the most law-abiding demographic. Even police officers commit crimes at a rate that is several times higher than licensed gun owners.

Edit - here it is: Police are extremely Law-abiding, but concealed handgun permit holders are even more so

"Concealed carry permit holders are even more law-abiding. Between October 1, 1987 and January 31, 2015, Florida revoked 9,366 concealed handgun permits for misdemeanors or felonies. This is an annual rate of 12.5 per 100,000 permit holders — a mere tenth of the rate at which officers commit misdemeanors and felonies."
 
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DPR

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I don't know if there have been any formal studies on the topic, but I suspect that licensed (or constitutional carry) civilians in general exercise more restraint than cops in resolving a conflict with a gun since they are held to a higher standard (arrest, not off duty with pay; mortgage house to hire attorney, rather than have the union provide one; etc.)
I would agree with your assumption. If you can get away with murder why wouldn't you? If this officer knew that he would automatically be charged and have a jury trial then things may have turned out different.
 
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No policeman should ever be allowed to carry a firearm on patrol, ever. All lethal weapons should stay in station armory until specific dangerous situation requires armed response. And then only the most senior officers who are known for having reasonable judgment and temperament should be the ones issued firearms.

Police would have to learn how to treat the public with polite respect and human decency since they will no longer be able to immediately kill those who frighten or embarrass them. They will have to actually learn how to effectively communicate with humans and how to de-escalate situations without bloodshed. No more over-enforcement of mundane infractions hoping to boost their personal felony arrest stats.

I don't fear criminals, I fear the police.
 

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No policeman should ever be allowed to carry a firearm on patrol, ever. All lethal weapons should stay in station armory until specific dangerous situation requires armed response. And then only the most senior officers who are known for having reasonable judgment and temperament should be the ones issued firearms.

Police would have to learn how to treat the public with polite respect and human decency since they will no longer be able to immediately kill those who frighten or embarrass them. They will have to actually learn how to effectively communicate with humans and how to de-escalate situations without bloodshed. No more over-enforcement of mundane infractions hoping to boost their personal felony arrest stats.

I don't fear criminals, I fear the police.
I always stress that cops should be on call.

Fire Department arrives in minutes, why can't the police be the same?

No more quota bs for speeding tickets, broken talighlights, etc. I bet the majority of cops hate that bs.

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I don't know if there have been any formal studies on the topic, but I suspect that licensed (or constitutional carry) civilians in general exercise more restraint than cops in resolving a conflict with a gun since they are held to a higher standard (arrest, not off duty with pay; mortgage house to hire attorney, rather than have the union provide one; etc.)
I agree
 
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I always stress that cops should be on call.

Fire Department arrives in minutes, why can't the police be the same?

No more quota bs for speeding tickets, broken talighlights, etc. I bet the majority of cops hate that bs.

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I agree
I do not think they should be on call. Patrols make it so they can respond to calls faster.

The problem is that police waste time responding broken taillights and simple lane infractions (victim of a 30 minute lane infraction stop in the past.. Let off with a warning).

I believe these stops are police "going fishing" hoping for a warrent or marijuana fine.

I am curious what made the officer draw his firearm. "officer, i have an ltc" is not justification. A civilian wanting to do harm to a cop is not going to announce it. "officer, i am going to pretend to reach for my wallet but will grab my knife"
 
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Quotas in almost anything is the quickest way to eliminate quality. The focus becomes getting things done quickly so they can hit a quota rather than getting things done with the highest possible quality. Cops have to hit quotas so they look for easy targets like the average slob just trying to get to work to hand out their allotted quota of state revenue coupons, I mean traffic tickets. So they spend less time getting training, practicing skills, working out to stay in top physical shape, etc. I'd gladly pay them to spend more time doing that and less time handing out traffic tickets.

When I was a customer service manager I had a rep who suddenly doubled his number of calls taken. He qualified for a quota award. When I listened to his calls I found a ton of, "I will transfer you to someone who can answer that question, have a nice day" followed by a cold transfer while he moved on to the next call. He was trained to take those calls but he decided it was easier and faster to cold transfer the calls to some other rep so he could beef up his numbers. Needless to say he didn't get the award.
 
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I

I am curious what made the officer draw his firearm. "officer, i have an ltc" is not justification. A civilian wanting to do harm to a cop is not going to announce it. "officer, i am going to pretend to reach for my wallet but will grab my knife"
Exactly. Nobody is going to tell a cop they are armed and have a license and then with the cop standing right there try and murder them. The cop ****ed up and he knew it.

No policeman should ever be allowed to carry a firearm on patrol, ever. All lethal weapons should stay in station armory until specific dangerous situation requires armed response. And then only the most senior officers who are known for having reasonable judgment and temperament should be the ones issued firearms.

Police would have to learn how to treat the public with polite respect and human decency since they will no longer be able to immediately kill those who frighten or embarrass them. They will have to actually learn how to effectively communicate with humans and how to de-escalate situations without bloodshed. No more over-enforcement of mundane infractions hoping to boost their personal felony arrest stats.

I don't fear criminals, I fear the police.
I'd like to agree but I can't. Police should not be required to carry a firearm but should be allowed to carry a personal one in the same manner with the same restrictions as anyone else. So if that requires a license, they need a license. If they are in NJ, then like the rest of people in NJ, they are out of luck. And furthermore it is not a standard tool for police and can only be used in the same situation as a normal person.

So take this example. Say someone called Bob was just having a conversation with this guy at his window while stopped at a stop sign. During the conversation he happens to tell him he is license and is carrying. He then goes to show Bob a picture on his phone, reaches for it and Bob blasts him. Nobody would be defending Bob as being justified. Yet here solely because it's a cop you have people trying.
 
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Hands on the wheel, don't move unless directed to do so, and tell the cop exactly what you are going to do before and while doing it. It won't entirely prevent assassinations, but it should help calm a cop with an itchy trigger finger.
If you have to beg permission to fart in in the vicinity of a cop to prevent being executed by someone that's terrified of everything around them it might be a good sign this country has way too many cops who's careers shouldnt have them carrying guns, maybe they can handle mops?.
 
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Hmmm, cops without guns. Not sure how I feel about that but it is worth consideration. I can see maybe having only experienced, seasoned cops having them all the time until they prove they can handle it. I dunno. I think a lot of it has to do with better training and stopping PDs from teaching new cops that they are above the law.
 
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As a CDL driver the vehicle inspection before you drive is very important, make sure everything is in good working order. Same goes for your non work rig, make sure everything works before you drive. Don't give them a reason to pull you over if you ccw as it looks as though they can now kill you if you are armed.
 
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If you have to beg permission to fart in in the vicinity of a cop to prevent being executed by someone that's terrified of everything around them it might be a good sign this country has way too many cops who's careers shouldnt have them carrying guns, maybe they can handle mops?.
I agree with you, but I also prefer to be alive and annoyed, rather than a dead vindictive prick. Realistically, there is a lot to be said (that is, criticism) for the way a lot of cops treat people they interact with. I've gotten both the ******* treating me like a punk because I was young and driving my muscle car too fast, and I have also gotten the polite professional. I am also aware of cops who have been shot and killed during routine traffic stops. They have no idea what they are walking into, and some are more even tempered than others. (And yeah, I think there is a prevalent mentality among cops that may lead to aggressiveness dealing with 'subjects'.)

I am not sure what situation there is where intentionally antagonizing the police as leading to a better outcome. The change you want to see needs to be made at a societal/institutional level and pushed down, not demanded at night on the side of the road.
 
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Rob Boudrie

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I do not think they should be on call. Patrols make it so they can respond to calls faster.
An EMT who works in Boston tells me he is given a location in the city to park the ambulance so they have a unit closer to locations likely to get calls. He doesn't need to be "on patrol" to be able to offer the benefit of a widely distributed set of ambulances.
 

headednorth

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Cops profile by traffic infractions, broken tail light or cracked windshield or even crossing the yellow line is just the book reason they stopped you. Then they figure out what you are guilty of.
An acquaintance of my sister is a Revere cop. He said flat out that his opinion was people with shitty cars have more issues than just a shitty car. (no license, expired registration, warrants, etc) In his mind driving a shitbox was probable cause. [rolleyes]
 
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What kind of positive outcome do you expect to see if it is you and the ******* cop on the side of the road? Seriously.
Uh, I don't know, maybe that the cop follows the law and doesn't violate people's rights? Obviously that is a foolish thought.

"The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."
 

mibro

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Uh, I don't know, maybe that the cop follows the law and doesn't violate people's rights? Obviously that is a foolish thought.
You will only win an argument with a LEO on the side of the road if that LEO is ALREADY a decent human being who intends to follow the law.
 
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An acquaintance of my sister is a Revere cop. He said flat out that his opinion was people with shitty cars have more issues than just a shitty car. (no license, expired registration, warrants, etc) In his mind driving a shitbox was probable cause. [rolleyes]
Theres probably a correlation.

Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
 
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Now I'm hearing that the taillight wasn't even out and that after the shooting the police told the girlfriend he was going to a different hospital then they actually were taking him to.
 
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An acquaintance of my sister is a Revere cop. He said flat out that his opinion was people with shitty cars have more issues than just a shitty car. (no license, expired registration, warrants, etc) In his mind driving a shitbox was probable cause. [rolleyes]
I believe you. My good long time friend has been dealing with cancer for a long time and is broke because of it. Drives an old S10 because it's all he can afford and they pull him over on a regular basis. Don't go through life looking poor if you want the cops to leave you alone.
 

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I have no sympathy for BLM, but anyone notice that cops manage to stop white people after leading them on multi-state cars chases without shooting them, but this poor bastard got shot for a minor traffic stop with a woman and kid in the car?
When black people complain about getting shot for "driving while black" - they have a point.

It does seem to happen quite a bit more often than it does to white people.
 

Come and take

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I do not think they should be on call. Patrols make it so they can respond to calls faster.

The problem is that police waste time responding broken taillights and simple lane infractions (victim of a 30 minute lane infraction stop in the past.. Let off with a warning).

I believe these stops are police "going fishing" hoping for a warrent or marijuana fine.

I am curious what made the officer draw his firearm. "officer, i have an ltc" is not justification. A civilian wanting to do harm to a cop is not going to announce it. "officer, i am going to pretend to reach for my wallet but will grab my knife"
US Supreme Court Decison Warren v District of Columbia. The police do not have the duty to provide protection and services to individual's except under specific assignments.

Basically we as citizens are on our own for personal protection. How many people believe the main purpose of your local PD is to protect and serve the people?

The majority of Police stops are lame infractions or fishing.

Police officers jobs are to investigate crimes, serve tickets, meet quotas/ revenue and majority of the time it leads to unnecessary encounters with the PD.


Partolling comes with a cost. Paying for overtime and hiring more officers.

Patrols can get there just as quick on call.
 

calsdad

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I'm coming around to this too. Cops simply need to stop pointing guns at people unless their lives are in imminent danger. That's the bottom line. And if BLM gets us closer to that, then viva la BLM.
If that's all BLM was trying to do - I'd probably half-heartedly support them.

But they've gone full retard Commie - so they can fu(k off and die. Just because they're opposing cops gone crazy doesn't make them my friend.

Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just another enemy.
 
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You will only win an argument with a LEO on the side of the road if that LEO is ALREADY a decent human being who intends to follow the law.
Exactly what I was getting at. The answer I was looking for wasn't a philosophical one. It is 'how do you respond to an abusive cop one-on-one in a way that results in a positive outcome for you?'

And again, I've had ******* cops treat me like shit for going 40 in a 30 zone or chirping the tires, and I've even had a cop give the the 'I've peeled guys your age off the pavement' after pulling me over doing 150 and not even ask for my license.

If the cop has a mind to jack you up, how do you turn that around?
 
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