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Military to Bring Back the .45

JonJ

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http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060127.aspx


U.S. Brings Back the .45

January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs.

SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don’t hold your breath.
 
Well overdue.

Does this mean the gvt 45s will start showing up soon at DCM?

(I know; not likely)
 
Ray P said:
Well overdue.

Does this mean the gvt 45s will start showing up soon at DCM?

(I know; not likely)

IIRC, they are prohibited from selling handguns.

MANY years ago CMP did sell handguns, but I think it was Kennedy that did something (legislation) that forever prohibited them selling handguns to mere plebeians.
 
LenS said:
Ray P said:
Well overdue.

Does this mean the gvt 45s will start showing up soon at DCM?

(I know; not likely)

IIRC, they are prohibited from selling handguns.

MANY years ago CMP did sell handguns, but I think it was Kennedy that did something (legislation) that forever prohibited them selling handguns to mere plebeians.

From what I've read over the years, you're correct.
 
Weer'd Beard said:
Ahh makes me happy to hear!

Down with the Euro-Pellet!

On with the great .45!!!

Arrr

-Weer'd Beard


45truth.jpg
 
Pilgrim,

I hope you have your Kevlar undies on, you may need them! [roll]

Some of the ladies on this forum may not appreciate your post and they can probably shoot circles around many of us guys!

You are on your own! [lol]
 
thanks goodness.

remember the story of the US Army soldier who was shot in the face, and his TOOTH stopped the 9mm?

I remember our .45s on active duty, I swear we were the last unit in Europe to get anything, were so tired, every third round or so you had to smack the slide forward with your hand. That hurt like hell!
 
Ann,

I wouldn't like to get shot with a .25 ! It might make me mad. :) All kidding aside, while holes are holes and shot placement is important (a hit with a .380 is better than a miss by a .45) There does seem to be a correlation regarding the size of the hole the bullet makes and its ability to incapacitate or otherwise neutralize a threat. This is why smaller (.355 or less) calibers have been proven ineffective in round nose or hard ball configuration. Except for some special applications, the military is prohibited from using anything but not expanding hardball rounds (yes I know that certain SOCOM units use .45 hollowpoints in their HK's) so the bigger the hole, the more likely to stop and when someone is trying to kill you and is close enough where you have to use a handgun to stop them, you want them down and out muy pronto.

Now over the years there have been all kinds of theories regarding stopping power, and probably the other members of this forum view the issue differently than I do, but over the years, and through several wars in the past 100 years or so, time and again, it has been clearly demonstrated that when limited to non-expanding or non-frangible ammunition, a hardball or round nose handgun caliber of .45 is more likely to produce rapid incapcitation than smaller calibers. I also agree with Tony that any handgun round is an iffy proposition and even in hardball configuration, a .45 is only going to stop or neutralize a threat with one shot about half the time. If you can avoid it, NEVER bring a handgun to a gunfight, and if you can avoid it at all NEVER engage in a gunfight period.

The tragedy of all this, is that we already learned the lesson regarding the use of the .45 in the Phillipines in the early part of the 20th Century. The .38 Long Colt service round of the day simply would not stop the Islamic terrorists known as the Moros (see, we have been fighting them a long time, l...our first major overseas military expedition was to the Middle East where we fought the Barbary Pirates in the early 1800's) and much of the fighting there was CQB (close quarters battle).

I actually prefer the 9mm but only with hollowpoints and I am the first to admit that with regard to the .45 "They always fall with hardball" is a myth and that Jeff Cooper's assertion that hardball .45 will stop or incapacitate a threat "19 out of 20 times" is more speculation than fact.

In 1991 when the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea was transitioning to the Beretta, there were still sufficient quantites of M1911A1s available. I carried a vintage Remington Rand that was four years older than me with a high degree of confidence. Of course I had already decided that if the balloon went up, I'd find the youngest, dumbest private around and "trade" my .45 for his or her M16 :)

Mark
 
LenS said:
Pilgrim,

I hope you have your Kevlar undies on, you may need them! [roll]

Some of the ladies on this forum may not appreciate your post and they can probably shoot circles around many of us guys!

You are on your own! [lol]


I've been married 38 years and I've survived - so far. Usually, I just say, 'sorry dear'. [lol]
 
Pilgrim said:
LenS said:
Pilgrim,

I hope you have your Kevlar undies on, you may need them! [roll]

Some of the ladies on this forum may not appreciate your post and they can probably shoot circles around many of us guys!

You are on your own! [lol]


I've been married 38 years and I've survived - so far. Usually, I just say, 'sorry dear'. [lol]

I just say, Love you. They can't stay mad when you tell them that you love them.
 
Hey, don't forget: a .380 is a good defense round... for a girl. [wink]

(just don't tell me that... my PPK's feelings would be hurt!)

Ross
 
dwarven1 said:
Hey, don't forget: a .380 is a good defense round... for a girl. [wink]

(just don't tell me that... my PPK's feelings would be hurt!)

Ross

Reinbeau, Dwarven1: either of you tried the CORBON .380 +P? From the stats, it looks like it has higher muzzle energy that a moderate load 38spl. A couple of co-workers bought or received .380s over the holidays, and as the office gun-nut, I've invited them to join me at the local gun club this spring for a fam fire. I'd like to try out a box or two then.

Back on track:
LenS said:
IIRC, they are prohibited from selling handguns.

MANY years ago CMP did sell handguns, but I think it was Kennedy that did something (legislation) that forever prohibited them selling handguns to mere plebeians.
I wonder if that was an executive order, or congressional action. With a truely pro-gun president, an EO would be easy to overturn.
 
Ray P said:
Reinbeau, Dwarven1: either of you tried the CORBON .380 +P? From the stats, it looks like it has higher muzzle energy that a moderate load 38spl. A couple of co-workers bought or received .380s over the holidays, and as the office gun-nut, I've invited them to join me at the local gun club this spring for a fam fire. I'd like to try out a box or two then.

I have not; it sounds interesting though. Let me know when you're going for that fam fire and I'll pick up some and try it there. Right now, my PPK is stoked with Winchester Silvertips - it loves 'em; they feed flawlessly. Which (other than the ability to flatten a goblin with one shot) is all you can ask in a carry ammo. [lol]
 
JuergenG said:
Weer'd Beard said:
Ahh makes me happy to hear!

Down with the Euro-Pellet!

On with the great .45!!!

Arrr

-Weer'd Beard
Yup, in another "Euro-Tupperware", a.k.a. H&K.

JuergenG: European gunmakers have made excellent pistols in 45 Auto. Why do you think the 45 isn't as popular in Europe as the 9x19? Maybe I'm asking the wrong question.
 
Both the 9x19 and .45 ACP are very popular rounds here. The .45 is just not popular with authorities, but widely spread in the sport shooting community.
The IPSC geeks are rather into .40 S&W or, to a lesser extend, .38 SA because of factors and mag capacity.

It took the German police decades to get away from the .32 Browning, along with their beloved PP's and PPk's, in favor of the 9mm Luger.
Now, instead of upgrading to a .357 SIG, .40 Soft&Weak or .45 ACP they keep the 9 Luger, but with different bullet types than the standard 125 grs. FMJ.
They had to re-invent the wheel, and are now mostly using bullets with a higher stopping power than the FMJ.
Examples are the MEN PEP and Dynamit Nobel Action series.
Re-inventing the wheel is meant to say that they didn't go for proven bullets such as the Speer Gold Dot or the Federal Hydra-Shok, which were readily available.
Somehow like NASA with their $ 100k toilet lid.
 
JuergenG said:
Re-inventing the wheel is meant to say that they didn't go for proven bullets such as the Speer Gold Dot or the Federal Hydra-Shok, which were readily available.
Somehow like NASA with their $ 100k toilet lid.

:) Or Kinda like the 10s of thousands of dollars {NASA} spent on developing an ink pen that would write in zero gravity; the Russians use pencils.

Thanks for the feedback. I couldn't believe all those guns were being made in 45 just for export to the US.

I guess the USA accepting the 9x19 as the NATO pistol standard was only fair: after all, IIRC, it was the US that pressured Europe to go with the 5.56x45 as the standard NATO rifle cartridge in lieu of the 7.62x51.

{ } = edit
 
Juergen, what are the German Police carrying these days as a duty weapon? Seems I remember seeing pics of them carrying Sig's or Walthers.
 
That differs from state to state.
Many are still equipped with the SigSauer P6 a.k.a. 225, Baden-Wuerttemberg had Walther P5 (not sure what they have now, but I would expect either HK or Walther P99 as both manufacturers are located in that state), Bavaria & Saxonia have/had the HK P7M8.
Some states have recently introduced HK P2000 and afaik Rhine Westphalia is now in the process of doing so, too.
Rumor has it that several thousand P5 are sitting in arsenals in Baden-Wuerttemberg an PC forbids to bring them to market.
Maybe they gonna torch them [evil]
Anyway, they are all 9mm Luger.
 
When I was living in Frankfurt from 67-71, the locals used Walther PPK's. A friend of mine was a Frankfurt cop who used to bring my Walther into work if I needed something for it. I lost a spring one time when I took it apart and he had no trouble getting me a replacement.

I really disliked that Walther, it liked to take big chunks of the web of my hand each time I fired it. It was a .380
 
reinbeau said:
I like my .45. I like my .40. And I doubt you'd like to get hit by a couple of my .380's (my favorite). Holes are holes! [twisted]

+1.......Don't mess with us girls! I like my .45, 9mm, .380, .32, but my favorite noisemaker is my .357. 8)
 
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