Military memorial rifle volley salute...lame?

[whacko]

There's no reason to get nasty when the reality is, without the ad-hom etc, stuff going on, I would wager a fair guess that you guys would agree more than disagree over a beer summit.

To me (a non military guy) this sounds more like an end result of skinflinting with the DOD. Things like the army have enough resources to put together a band for a football game or whatever, but for some seemingly
bizzare reason there's not any resources for these kind of things. I would like to think the anger here in this thread is more focused on DOD dysfunction" than finger pointing about sloppy leadership. Hell every good guy
I know that got out, left in part because of the red tape circus with the DOD. Honestly I see/hear stuff like this and I think its a travesty; there are people that should have stayed in but the "shit pressure" of DOD retardation
got too great to bear.... and nobody ever wants to fix it becuase of the can kicking mentality and self-selection of bad leadership at higher/back end levels. Seemingly 9 out of 10 times most of the REMFs/brass tacks end up being politicians that happen to have military rank (but they act like pols in congress etc. ) Some of the stuff I hear from my friends that are still in is mind numbing. It's like we set up a fighting force and the forces are always spending a third of their energy fighting the" bureaucratic lard" of the system.

Just my .02 (non military, but understanding) cents.

-Mike

I retired as a MAJ because I full on realized that my time actually working directly with soldiers was over. Moving up the field grade officer ranks Is about 75% politics.....and I'm no politician. I retired at 25 years......with above center of mass OER's and a freshly printed 2 year retention memo. NOBODY does that. Folks here that have reserve and NG time will know what that means.

My responses.....were harsh and nasty......and I double down on them based on my belief that I was being called out for "bad leadership" for not pushing d and c from a guy that left the national guard 5 years before "shit got real".

 

[Picton]

My responses.....were harsh and nasty......and I double down on them based on my belief that I was being called out for "bad leadership" for not pushing d and c from a guy that left the national guard 5 years before "shit got real".

Again. Classless.

And also incorrect. Reread my posts.

 

[whacko]

‘94-‘97.

My NCOs hammered D&C, even though we were an FO unit.

ETA: I see where this is going, and I’m not interested in a pissing contest. But you’re making excuses for unacceptably poor performance. Unless you think that drill was done to standard. Either way, I’m not likely to agree with you.

Was not done to standard.

Not possible to do it to standard 100% of the time when you have not trained on a 21 gun salute ever in your 1 weekend a month drills because your spending all of the drill weekends on training tasks required to keep the unit combat ready.....oh....and about 2 to 4 hours a drill weekend on "don't kill yourself" and "don't rape people" briefings. The guard has changed alot since 1997.....most for the better......some not.

By the way....my previous comments the funeral.honors units in the guard......those units were created to take the burden off drilling guard units from having to perform funeral details so they could concentrate on combat readiness while at the same time providing a much higher standard of performance at the funerals.. Like I said......the subject of this is the poor performance of a detail for a memorial dedication....not a funeral. If a funeral honors detail had done that ceremony it would have been perfect...but they can't do non funeral events due to fiscal responsibility. They got volunteers that did their best with probably no time to prepare. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Dench]

This was posted on the MA guards page and noticeably missing are photos of what went down in that video.

If I had to guess they were unable to get enough people in the know in on that detail. The actual Honor Guard is super busy doing funerals and other related official business, so presumably they weren't available for this and some quick standings had to be brought in.

The guard is not going to be doing any D&C training. There isn't enough time during the year to even keep actual MOS skills sharp never mind the dog and pony show stuff. Combat readiness comes 1st always and the Honor Guard unit does its best to keep up with it's duties.

Not to mention like noted above the time they arent doing things that are actually useful they are watching hours of mindless politically correct power point classes. Don't rape people, no sexually assaulting anyone, no calling people gay, no using the N word. No you can't call asains "china men." Etc. We actually had a guy from asia who we called china man and he liked it. he was sitting next to us during that breif and holy shit was that funny when the guy giving the class (who has no idea who we are) said "china man" is inappropriate and 10 of us burst out laughing.

To think the MA guard is drilling D&C is crazy. Talk about a retention nightmare. Post basic I can think of 2-3 times I've ever marched ever again in a formation. And boy was that a shit show.

 

[whacko]

This was posted on the MA guards page and noticeably missing are photos of what went down in that video.

If I had to guess they were unable to get enough people in the know in on that detail. The actual Honor Guard is super busy doing funerals and other related official business, so presumably they weren't available for this and some quick standings had to be brought in.

The guard is not going to be doing any D&C training. There isn't enough time during the year to even keep actual MOS skills sharp never mind the dog and pony show stuff. Combat readiness comes 1st always and the Honor Guard unit does its best to keep up with it's duties.

Not to mention like noted above the time they arent doing things that are actually useful they are watching hours of mindless politically correct power point classes. Don't rape people, no sexually assaulting anyone, no calling people gay, no using the N word. No you can't call asains "china men." Etc. We actually had a guy from asia who we called china man and he liked it. he was sitting next to us during that breif and holy shit was that funny when the guy giving the class (who has no idea who we are) said "china man" is inappropriate and 10 of us burst out laughing.

To think the MA guard is drilling D&C is crazy. Talk about a retention nightmare. Post basic I can think of 2-3 times I've ever marched ever again in a formation. And boy was that a shit show.

Well said.

Some on here will get what your saying.

Some will think you and your leaders are inept or classless because you can't whip up a 21 gun salute to perfection in 24 hours notice. Is what it is.... don't let the nay sayers get you down.

Thanks for your service.

 

[Picton]

This was posted on the MA guards page and noticeably missing are photos of what went down in that video.

If I had to guess they were unable to get enough people in the know in on that detail. The actual Honor Guard is super busy doing funerals and other related official business, so presumably they weren't available for this and some quick standings had to be brought in.

The guard is not going to be doing any D&C training. There isn't enough time during the year to even keep actual MOS skills sharp never mind the dog and pony show stuff. Combat readiness comes 1st always and the Honor Guard unit does its best to keep up with it's duties.

Not to mention like noted above the time they arent doing things that are actually useful they are watching hours of mindless politically correct power point classes. Don't rape people, no sexually assaulting anyone, no calling people gay, no using the N word. No you can't call asains "china men." Etc. We actually had a guy from asia who we called china man and he liked it. he was sitting next to us during that breif and holy shit was that funny when the guy giving the class (who has no idea who we are) said "china man" is inappropriate and 10 of us burst out laughing.

To think the MA guard is drilling D&C is crazy. Talk about a retention nightmare. Post basic I can think of 2-3 times I've ever marched ever again in a formation. And boy was that a shit show.

Simply put:

If you were given six joes and told to post an honor guard, with 24 or 12 or even six hours’ notice, would you have done a proper job?

 

[whacko]

Simply put:

If you were given six joes and told to post an honor guard, with 24 or 12 or even six hours’ notice, would you have done a proper job?

Considering "24 hours notice" means the nco gets to see the soldiers about 5 or 6 hours before the ceremony kicks off including travel time to the ceremony.....I would give it 50/50 it would go perfectly. A 21 gun salute is no small task......my platoon (not me personally) had to do one.....In Iraq.....for a fallen member of the BN....and they gave the detail 48 hours notice to practice to get it right.....they practiced for 8 hours x 2 days. It went well.....because they had time to practice. Your standard guard unit state side would never get that amount of time to prepare.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

It's a memorial, more power to them.

I wouldn't think to criticize as I am old and fat, I no longer snap, I no longer pop!

:emoji_tiger:

 

[Picton]

Considering "24 hours notice" means the nco gets to see the soldiers about 5 or 6 hours before the ceremony kicks off including travel time to the ceremony.....I would give it 50/50 it would go perfectly. A 21 gun salute is no small task......my platoon (not me personally) had to do one.....In Iraq.....for a fallen member of the BN....and they gave the detail 48 hours notice to practice to get it right.....they practiced for 8 hours x 2 days. It went well.....because they had time to practice. Your standard guard unit state side would never get that amount of time to prepare.

Thank you, but I wasn’t asking you. Your standards are known. You excuse a piss-poor ceremony because the budgeting wasn’t there. I do not.

My point is that leaders, given missions, get those missions done. We will not see eye to eye on this, as despite your stellar OERs you seem to have developed a different mindset than the one my leaders taught me. Soldiers on deployment (yes, I was one, once) receive missions all the time that they’re not properly prepared for. If they execute those missions as poorly as this one, it’s a problem.

I’m not sure why you’re quite so defensive about this. But the fact remains: a properly led detail should have been able to march in, halt, present, fire, charge their weapons, and repeat it twice more in synch. It’s not rocket science, it’s listening, paying attention to detail, and rehearsing. And caring.

Have a good weekend.

 

[whacko]

Thank you, but I wasn’t asking you. Your standards are known. You excuse a piss-poor ceremony because the budgeting wasn’t there. I do not.

My point is that leaders, given missions, get those missions done. We will not see eye to eye on this, as despite your stellar OERs you seem to have developed a different mindset than the one my leaders taught me. Soldiers on deployment (yes, I was one, once) receive missions all the time that they’re not properly prepared for. If they execute those missions as poorly as this one, it’s a problem.

I’m not sure why you’re quite so defensive about this. But the fact remains: a properly led detail should have been able to march in, halt, present, fire, charge their weapons, and repeat it twice more in synch. It’s not rocket science, it’s listening, paying attention to detail, and rehearsing. And caring.

Have a good weekend.

I'll love you tell the NCOIC of that detail he f***ed it up and sucks as an NCO. I'd pay admission to see you tell him to his face.

 

[Dench]

Simply put:

If you were given six joes and told to post an honor guard, with 24 or 12 or even six hours’ notice, would you have done a proper job?

No of course not. I had zero training in it outside of basic.

 

[fshalor]

Back to the simulators? They were using them I guess. I know they exist.

I was playing in a band at the big cemetary in Cape near the base for 4th of July a few years ago. (Falmouth Town band plus some Barnstable people to fill in ranks).

There was a delay because someone had requested that the honor guard use simulators instead of real rifles. The honor guard refused and showed up with their rifles instead. After a brief spat, the organizer gave in and let them continue.

Then the dude they organized to play taps comes up, in uniform, with a fake horn and plays a recorded taps.

I'm sitting next to a trumpet player who was subbing in with us. Who happened to be ready to cold cock the other guy. He's seething and fuming next to me for the entire thing and then calms down. Finally rants a few points.
1. He was there and his uniform is in his car. He played for details like this a few times a month.
2. He had his trumpet right there.
3. The organizer knew it, because he'd offered earlier in the week to do it but they said "we got someone".
4. His father and grandfather were burried in that cemetery.

Neither of these sounds should be simulated. Real brass cartridges must be struck by metal. Real horns must be played with air and heart.

I understand if it's some sort or exigent circumstances and no one is available in some remote location or something. But a 4th of July gig at a national cemetery wasn't it.

Nor was the video in the OP.

 

[Picton]

The coarsening of these events must be accelerating.

I’ve told the story before, at greater length, but I feel strongly about this because of my grandmother’s funeral. She’d been a marine, and the three young reservists detailed to fold her flag could not have been more professional.

I know this because they screwed up the fold; when they got to the end of the ceremony, the flag’s alignment was incorrect.

So, while all the mourners stared, the E4 in charge of the detail quietly and with great dignity had his two PFCs unfold the flag and do it again. The right way. Right there beside the casket.

It was the right thing to do because that kid understood the importance of the situation and knew his duty was to get it right. I feel like the NCOIC in the OP would have let the sloppy flag slide. Or, conversely, I feel like that young marine would have been too proud to let his detail get that bad.

Now I get that the marines and the army are different, and that the ARNG isn’t the Marine Reserve. But doing a detail right simply isn’t that hard. All it requires is professionalism.

I’m done, thankfully. We’re not changing any minds here. If you think the salute in the OP was done with dignity, great. You’re welcome to your opinion.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Well this went left. Lol

 

[1919FAN]

When my Dad passed in 03 his Honor Guard came from Fort Drum , These recruit's were squared up my Dad would have been proud.

 

[Rehoboth Dave]

I drew a funeral detail when I was stationed at Ft. Ord with the 7th ID back in the 1981. We were assembled the day before from random people drawn from around the division so none of us knew each other. We were given a lecture and dry run then issued weapons and then were driven down to San Diego (which was like a 7 hour trip) arriving after dark at the hotel we were quartered at. The real practice didn't actually start until very early next morning. We ran through the drill repeatedly right out there in the graveyard until the funeral procession arrived then we did it for real.

 

[whacko]

The coarsening of these events must be accelerating.

I’ve told the story before, at greater length, but I feel strongly about this because of my grandmother’s funeral. She’d been a marine, and the three young reservists detailed to fold her flag could not have been more professional.

I know this because they screwed up the fold; when they got to the end of the ceremony, the flag’s alignment was incorrect.

So, while all the mourners stared, the E4 in charge of the detail quietly and with great dignity had his two PFCs unfold the flag and do it again. The right way. Right there beside the casket.

It was the right thing to do because that kid understood the importance of the situation and knew his duty was to get it right. I feel like the NCOIC in the OP would have let the sloppy flag slide. Or, conversely, I feel like that young marine would have been too proud to let his detail get that bad.

Now I get that the marines and the army are different, and that the ARNG isn’t the Marine Reserve. But doing a detail right simply isn’t that hard. All it requires is professionalism.

I’m done, thankfully. We’re not changing any minds here. If you think the salute in the OP was done with dignity, great. You’re welcome to your opinion.

My friend.....I'm sure if the detail in this topic could have done a "do over" like the marines in your example they would have.

So......based on your theory of professionalism I'm confused more now. Shouldn't the marines have had better nco's to make sure they folded it right the first time? Here your saying the marines were high speed because they did the flag wrong but re did it correctly......But..... OMG...the national guard guys......they suck cuz they messed up the first time. Can't re do a 21 gun.....

Your not applying the same concept to both examples. I mean.....its just folding a flag.....not rocket science.....right?

I'm having a difficult time figuring out how you previously said my standards are low and you'd have done it right.....then a couple posts later provide laud and honor over a couple of marines that jacked up a flag fold and had to re do it. Why would your standards be different? Very confusing.

 

[Dench]

Now I get that the marines and the army are different, and that the ARNG isn’t the Marine Reserve. But doing a detail right simply isn’t that hard. All it requires is professionalism.

I’m done, thankfully. We’re not changing any minds here. If you think the salute in the OP was done with dignity, great. You’re welcome to your opinion.

The Massachusetts Army National Guard has a Honor Guard. This Honor Guard is composed of soldiers who do this as a job. This is their career in the MAANG and they are on orders. They get paid full time to drill, rehearse, perfect and perform excellent services for the people.

Doing details right is extremely difficult. They require hours of practice, good memorization, excellent synchronization with fellow Honor Guard soldiers and true dedication. This is why being on the Honor Guard is an actual job.

I was never shown how to fold a flag once in the military. I know how to do it, but it never happened once while in the service. I don't remember anyone else doing it either. It wasn't something we were doing. We were a line unit and we were desperate for MOS based training. My company didnt have any members who worked in the Honor Guard, either. So it wasnt like many people who were in my company were even in a position to train in how to do it. It's an extremely perishable skill and doing it right and sharply is not easy.

 

[whacko]

The Massachusetts Army National Guard has a Honor Guard. This Honor Guard is composed of soldiers who do this as a job. This is their career in the MAANG and they are on orders. They get paid full time to drill, rehearse, perfect and perform excellent services for the people.

Doing details right is extremely difficult. They require hours of practice, good memorization, excellent synchronization with fellow Honor Guard soldiers and true dedication. This is why being on the Honor Guard is an actual job.

I was never shown how to fold a flag once in the military. I know how to do it, but it never happened once while in the service. I don't remember anyone else doing it either. It wasn't something we were doing. We were a line unit and we were desperate for MOS based training. My company didnt have any members who worked in the Honor Guard, either. So it wasnt like many people who were in my company were even in a position to train in how to do it. It's an extremely perishable skill and doing it right and sharply is not easy.

I'm still trying to figure out how he says "it's not that hard"......and gives glorious praise to marines that messed up a flag fold and had to re do it.......but national guard guys mess up a 21 gun and they suck and have poor leadership.

 

[Dench]

I'm still trying to figure out how he says "it's not that hard"......and gives glorious praise to marines that messed up a flag fold and had to re do it.......but national guard guys mess up a 21 gun and they suck and have poor leadership.

Some people are more disagreeable than others. And a few are so disagreeable that short of kissing the ring youll never agree on anything.

He's either not being serious, has no idea what hes talking about, is trolling, has autism or is just looking for another day of boring disagreement on NES.

I mean look at xtry and I. xtry is legally retarded under US federal law. And he's telling me how to use medical gear wrong. After I gave him a gentle spank we went out for a few drinks and made out. He learned something, i got some action. It was win win.

 

[whacko]

Some people are more disagreeable than others. And a few are so disagreeable that short of kissing the ring youll never agree on anything.

He's either not being serious, has no idea what hes talking about, is trolling, has autism or is just looking for another day of boring disagreement on NES.

I mean look at xtry and I. xtry is legally retarded under US federal law. And he's telling me how to use medical gear wrong. After I gave him a gentle spank we went out for a few drinks and made out. He learned something, i got some action. It was win win.

Wtf?

 

[whacko]

The Massachusetts Army National Guard has a Honor Guard. This Honor Guard is composed of soldiers who do this as a job. This is their career in the MAANG and they are on orders. They get paid full time to drill, rehearse, perfect and perform excellent services for the people.

Doing details right is extremely difficult. They require hours of practice, good memorization, excellent synchronization with fellow Honor Guard soldiers and true dedication. This is why being on the Honor Guard is an actual job.

I was never shown how to fold a flag once in the military. I know how to do it, but it never happened once while in the service. I don't remember anyone else doing it either. It wasn't something we were doing. We were a line unit and we were desperate for MOS based training. My company didnt have any members who worked in the Honor Guard, either. So it wasnt like many people who were in my company were even in a position to train in how to do it. It's an extremely perishable skill and doing it right and sharply is not easy.

I learned how to fold a flag in boy scouts. Wasn't too hard but took practice. We had to do it right to earn one of the ranks o forget which one. Apparently it's tougher for marines though.....they get two attempts to get it right and then earn respect and honor after getting it right on the second try.

 

[Mountain]

I drew a funeral detail when I was stationed at Ft. Ord with the 7th ID back in the 1981. We were assembled the day before from random people drawn from around the division so none of us knew each other. We were given a lecture and dry run then issued weapons and then were driven down to San Diego (which was like a 7 hour trip) arriving after dark at the hotel we were quartered at. The real practice didn't actually start until very early next morning. We ran through the drill repeatedly right out there in the graveyard until the funeral procession arrived then we did it for real.

I can remember visiting Ft. Ord as a kid. My great uncle was MSgt. there and served in the Philippines during WWII. One no nonsense, hard drinking, hard smoking son of a gun. He retired and lived the rest of his life in Sac. I have his Colt 1903, which was not a gov issue but he got one and carried it anyway as a rub to the general officers who had them issued.

 

[ISOTOX]

Epic butt hurt thread.... For some anyway.


P.S. Please do something tomorrow to honor our fallen.