ME St. Police Stating Maine Permit Needed in Acadia Nat Park

[Len-2A Training]

Len, how do you read the difference between the two requirements:



Note that Acadia says "Maine Permit required" and the State Parks simply says "Permit required." It looks to me at first blush like a Maine permit is specified for Acadia, but any permit would serve for State Parks, including home-state permits with which ME has reciprocity. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

I would want to get clarification from ME SP directly on that before "assuming" that it would be OK in state parks with a NH or other license.

 

[NinerMaine]

Here are the laws concerning the carrying of a concealed weapon in Acadia using a permit issued by another state that is valid in Maine by reciprocity.


http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/12/title12sec756.html

"When the firearm is a concealed firearm carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued as provided in Title 25, chapter 252. The person must have in that person's possession the permit as required in Title 25, section 2003."

Here is Title 25, Section 2003, which only discusses the process for Maine issued permits.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2003.html

And here is Title 25 Section 2001-A which states... "F. A handgun carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued by that person's state of residence if that person's state of residence honors a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued under this chapter;"

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2001-A.html

So... the law for Acadia strictly refers to section 2003 which is for Mainer permits. Section 2001A is the law for reciprocity. I am not a lawyer, but am familiar with what is understood here in Maine and that is how the law reads. Only Maine permits are good in Acadia, not resident Maine permit would be good, but no permits accepted by reciprocity and no Constitutional Carry.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Here are the laws concerning the carrying of a concealed weapon in Acadia using a permit issued by another state that is valid in Maine by reciprocity.


http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/12/title12sec756.html

"When the firearm is a concealed firearm carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued as provided in Title 25, chapter 252. The person must have in that person's possession the permit as required in Title 25, section 2003."

Here is Title 25, Section 2003, which only discusses the process for Maine issued permits.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2003.html

And here is Title 25 Section 2001-A which states... "F. A handgun carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued by that person's state of residence if that person's state of residence honors a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued under this chapter;"

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2001-A.html

So... the law for Acadia strictly refers to section 2003 which is for Mainer permits. Section 2001A is the law for reciprocity. I am not a lawyer, but am familiar with what is understood here in Maine and that is how the law reads. Only Maine permits are good in Acadia, not resident Maine permit would be good, but no permits accepted by reciprocity and no Constitutional Carry.

Section 2003 is the process for getting a ME permit. I didn't read all the words, but I also didn't note anything about other state permits in this section.

 

[NinerMaine]

I would want to get clarification from ME SP directly on that before "assuming" that it would be OK in state parks with a NH or other license.

Here is the law concerning reciprocity with other states and carrying in state parks. It is allowed.

"B. A person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued by another state if a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued from that state has been granted reciprocity under Title 25, chapter 252."

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/12/title12sec1803.html

Please note that Baxter State Park is a separate legal entity from the other state parks so the law above does not apply to Baxter State Park, even though it is called a state park.

Baxter State Park has its own rules here:

http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/rules/#hunting

 

[NinerMaine]

Section 2003 is the process for getting a ME permit. I didn't read all the words, but I also didn't note anything about other state permits in this section.

I am not sure what you are asking Len.

But now that I reread this law for Acadia, "When the firearm is a concealed firearm carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued as provided in Title 25, chapter 252. The person must have in that person's possession the permit as required in Title 25, section 2003"

First is says, "When the firearm is a concealed firearm carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued as provided in Title 25, chapter 252..." which would cover out of state permits that have reciprocity since section 2001A is part of Title 25, Chapter 252.

but then it says, "The person must have in that person's possession the permit as required in Title 25, section 2003". Which I am now seeing as only meaning that the permit must be on your person as defined in section 2003. Here is the part from 2003 that covers having the permit on your person. "11. Permit to be in permit holder's immediate possession. Every permit holder, including a nonresident who holds a permit issued by the nonresident's state of residence, shall have the holder's permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the same on demand of any law enforcement officer. A person charged with violating this subsection may not be adjudicated as having committed a civil violation if that person produces in court the concealed handgun permit that was valid at the time of the issuance of a summons to court or, if the holder exhibits the permit to a law enforcement officer designated by the summonsing officer not later than 24 hours before the time set for the court appearance, a complaint may not be issued. "

What do you think Len?

 

[NinerMaine]

Here is the page from the Maine State Police. Notice it says Mainer permit. But they also have private property wrong above and you will notice they do not have a statute listed.

There is no law in Maine giving a no guns sign on private property the force of law. The only exception would be property that is licensed for the consumption of alcohol. If posted, those places signs' will have the force of law.
http://maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html

That document by the MSP is not legal advice and means nothing in a court of law

As I have stated above, the understanding by Mainers is that only a Mainer permit is good in Acadia. But that may be a mistake in my humble opinion for the reasons I stated above. But a MSP trooper will most likely tag you for it and you would have to fight it in court.

 

[ScottS]

I think everyone is agreed a Maine permit is required in Acadia. That seems clear from the State Police page. I'm still uncertain why the verbiage in the second bullet ("State Parks (Permit required; open carry not permitted; 12 M.R.S. § 1803(7))") only specifies permit rather than Maine Permit as the bullet above it does.

 

[rlee]

After noticing the difference between prohibitions for Acadia vs state parks, I rooted around 25.252 trying to make a NH permit allow carry in state parks.
Here's what I got:
Title 25 Chapter 252 section 2001A covers the violation of concealed carry.
paragraph 2 has exceptions.
2.A: "A handgun carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued as provided in this chapter;"
2.F: "A handgun carried by a person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued by that person's state of residence if that person's state of residence honors a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued under this chapter;"

These two paragraphs said to me that the intent was that "...issued as provided in this chapter;" and "...issued under this chapter;" both refer only to the issuing of the Maine permit.

At this point I decided that the law about state parks, which only refers to the chapter, has the same effect as the Acadia law, which does refer to section 2003.
At this point I went for another cup of coffee.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I think that I have a headache trying to sort thru that morass of laws and MSP interpretations!

The only two things that stand out to me (and IANAL and NOT an expert on ME gun laws, my expertise is MA gun laws) are:

- Acadia - requires a ME permit only.
- Baxter - can't carry no matter what you have.

The rest wrt state parks and reciprocity seems gray to me and without more clarity by those enforcing the laws (ME AG or MSP), I'd be real cautious about carrying with a different state's permit.

There is a few reasons why I renewed my ME permit last year in spite of semi-constitutional carry. By doing so, the only park I won't be able to carry is Baxter.

 

[NinerMaine]

I think everyone is agreed a Maine permit is required in Acadia. That seems clear from the State Police page. I'm still uncertain why the verbiage in the second bullet ("State Parks (Permit required; open carry not permitted; 12 M.R.S. § 1803(7))") only specifies permit rather than Maine Permit as the bullet above it does.

I not sure why the issue for state parks is unclear. I quoted the law above which clearly states that permits from states for which reciprocity is recognized are allowed. The law is clear for that issue.

The MSP bullet list does not have the weight of law. They already have the bullet point for private property wrong. They are not lawyers.

"7. Exceptions. Notwithstanding subsection 6 or any other rule-making authority, the bureau may not adopt rules that prohibit the following persons from carrying a concealed handgun in the buildings or parts of buildings and other public property that are under the bureau’s jurisdiction:
A. A person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued under Title 25, chapter 252. The person must have in that person's possession the valid permit; [2013, c. 424, Pt. A, §4 (AMD).]
B. A person to whom a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun has been issued by another state if a permit to carry a concealed handgun issued from that state has been granted reciprocity under Title 25, chapter 252. The person must have in that person's possession the valid permit; "

 

[KBCraig]

Just to remind everyone who is discussing laws about Maine state parks, Acadia is a national park. For some reason, while writing their laws for state parks, Maine decided to write a special law for a national park over which they have no legislative authority.

National Parks used to ban all carry, and even all transport of any firearm that wasn't "unloaded, broken down, and securely cased". (That was problematic in places like Hot Springs National Park in Arkansas, where state and U.S. highways, along with city streets, run through the "park" (because it's entirely contained within a city).)

In 2009, a credit reform bill got tagged with an amendment by Sen. Tom Coburn that forced the National Park Service to follow state law on possession of firearms. (It did not overturn the federal law ban on guns in "federal facilities", including NPS buildings where federal employees work.)

This is the mishmash that happens states try to emulate federal law, but don't keep up as federal law changes.

 

[PeterGV]

I don't get what the big deal is... Just get a Maine permit. It's issued quickly and without undue difficulty, and it's good for five years. I just renewed mine. It took about three weeks to arrive. Why would anyone traveling to Maine who wants to carry NOT do this? You guys have spent more effort posting questions here about whether the permit is needed or not the it takes to fill out th forms and mail them.

 

[Racenet]

I don't get what the big deal is... Just get a Maine permit. It's issued quickly and without undue difficulty, and it's good for five years. I just renewed mine. It took about three weeks to arrive. Why would anyone traveling to Maine who wants to carry NOT do this? You guys have spent more effort posting questions here about whether the permit is needed or not the it takes to fill out th forms and mail them.

Because some would rather not simply piss money away on needless government licenses.

 

[cockpitbob]

Maine doesn't recognize other state's out of state permits. If you live in VA your permit is good in ME, but ME won't recognize an out of state VA permit.

 

[noxin]

I don't get what the big deal is... Just get a Maine permit. It's issued quickly and without undue difficulty, and it's good for five years. I just renewed mine. It took about three weeks to arrive. Why would anyone traveling to Maine who wants to carry NOT do this? You guys have spent more effort posting questions here about whether the permit is needed or not the it takes to fill out th forms and mail them.

Just because you had no issue giving a government entity permission to dig into your complete medical history doesn't mean someone else will follow that logic.

 

[Davejb]

So a side question. How long have Maine & NH had reciprocity? I could have sworn the last time I looked we didn't, yet here it is http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_reciprocity.html

So I can conclude that this will negate the limits (state parks, notify law enforcement, etc) of the constitutional carry law, from what I've read on the above link that would be so, so I don't need a Maine non resident (I have my NH PRL).

 

[Palladin]

Maine dumped their carry permits two years ago

http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html

 

[Davejb]

Maine dumped their carry permits two years ago

http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html

Curious, seeing as how you still need one to carry in places not allowed by their permitless carry law.

 

[NinerMaine]

Maine dumped their carry permits two years ago

http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html

Maine did not dump their carry permits. When LD652 (Constitutional Carry) became law on Oct. 15, 2015, it did not change the permit system at all. There are several advantages to still having your permit and there has only been a slight decline in the number of permits being issued by the state police. There is no data for the number of permits being issued by local authorities.

The advantage of keeping you permit are as follows:

1) reciprocity with other states
2) no duty to inform
3) you can carry in state parks and Arcadia (But not Baxter State Park as that is a different legal entity)
4) you will be covered by the law that allows you to keep you gun locked and out of sight in your car on your employer's property (does not include schools and other prohibited places).

 

[NinerMaine]

So a side question. How long have Maine & NH had reciprocity? I could have sworn the last time I looked we didn't, yet here it is http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_reciprocity.html

So I can conclude that this will negate the limits (state parks, notify law enforcement, etc) of the constitutional carry law, from what I've read on the above link that would be so, so I don't need a Maine non resident (I have my NH PRL).

Maine and NH has had reciprocity for about a year. From Gun Owners of Maine

Maine Concealed Handgun Permits Now Valid in New Hampshire

Maine residents holding a Maine Concealed Handgun Permit will now also be able to carry a handgun in the State of New Hampshire, as a result of legislation passed in 2015 with the support of Gun Owners of Maine.

LD 868, sponsored by Maine Sen. Paul Davis, overwhelmingly passed in the House of Representatives with a vote of 98-43, and unanimously passed the Senate. The bill established a simple and fair rule for Maine’s recognition of other state’s concealed weapons permits: If another state recognizes Maine’s permit, Maine will recognize theirs. This replaced the old system in which the Chief of the State Police was able to enter into formal reciprocity agreements with other states, provided those states met or exceeded Maine’s permit requirements.

Gun Owners of Maine strongly supported this common-sense legislation in order to remove impediments to recognition of Maine’s gun permits throughout the nation. Maine’s new law will encourage other states to recognize Maine’s permit, and gain Maine’s recognition in return, enhancing the gun rights of both the citizens of those states as well as Mainers.

http://gunownersofmaine.org/page-1537613/3737681/Reply?replyTo=3737681#3737681

 

[NinerMaine]

And just an added note. Because of the wording of the law.... a Maine permit is considered required by law to carry in state parks and a Maine resident permit is needed to carry in Acadia. (edit: maine issued non resident permits are good in Acadia)

The link provided above is a great source of info and details where and where you cannot carry and the laws that apply. http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html

Also, you should consider joining Gun Owners of Maine. They are the premier gun rights organization in Maine. They have a great Face Book page where you can ask questions and get the correct answers with the law cited. It is still FB so there is some crap as well.... but it is better than most FB groups. (Edit Note.. see post below for correction on which out of state permits are good in Arcadia)

http://gunownersofmaine.org/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/gunownersofmaine/

 

[Len-2A Training]

And just an added note. Because of the wording of the law.... a Maine permit is considered required by law to carry in state parks and a Maine resident permit is needed to carry in Acadia.

Huh, did you really intend to say that a someone with a ME NR license can't carry there??

Back when that law was passed, that is not how I read it.

 

[Davejb]

Maine and NH has had reciprocity for about a year. From Gun Owners of Maine

Ok, so I'm not THAT attentive, it's been over a year since I checked obviously.

And just an added note. Because of the wording of the law.... a Maine permit is considered required by law to carry in state parks and a Maine resident permit is needed to carry in Acadia./

So reciprocity is no help there? What's the point of reciprocity if you only have the rights of someone that doesn't have a CCW to begin with?

 

[NinerMaine]

Huh, did you really intend to say that a someone with a ME NR license can't carry there??

Back when that law was passed, that is not how I read it.

Yes unfortunately. It is right there in the MSP's website (the first link in my post above)

Edit Note... I stand corrected. It appears that the requirement for a Maine resident permit was changed after the new reciprocity law was changed. It use to be the way I stated. But looking below:

"Acadia National Park (Maine Permit required; 12 M.R.S. §756) NOTE: Pursuant to 25 M.R.S. 2001-A (2)(F), Maine will recognize a concealed handgun permit issued by another state to its resident if that state recognizes Maine’s resident concealed handgun permits. A resident permit from that state is valid for concealed carry of a handgun within Acadia National Park" http://www.maine.gov/dps/msp/licenses/weapons_permits.html


So...resident permits from states recognized for reciprocity in Maine are now good in Acadia. Glad I went to cite my sources and saw that. I was not aware of that change.

 

[Davejb]

Yes unfortunately. It is right there in the MSP's website (the first link in my post above)

Edit Note... I stand corrected. It appears that the requirement for a Maine resident permit was changed after the new reciprocity law was changed. It use to be the way I stated. But looking below:

"Acadia National Park (Maine Permit required; 12 M.R.S. §756) NOTE: Pursuant to 25 M.R.S. 2001-A (2)(F), Maine will recognize a concealed handgun permit issued by another state to its resident if that state recognizes Maine’s resident concealed handgun permits. A resident permit from that state is valid for concealed carry of a handgun within Acadia National Park"


So...resident permits from states recognized for reciprocity in Maine are now good in Acadia. Glad I went to cite my sources and saw that. I was not aware of that change.

Ok, that's what I was reading this morning,then got conflicting info, so I'm good via reciprocity for anything a resident CCW is good for?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I think you missed my point.

I renewed my Maine NR license specifically so we can visit Acadia and be within the law. My reading was that either license gave you the right to be armed in Acadia. I haven't revisited the Maine State website about this over the past 2 years however.

Reciprocity isn't an issue to me as long as I reside in Mass. Mass will never allow reciprocity with anyone, ever.

 

[NinerMaine]

That is why I always try to cite sources when I give out information. It was a weird situation. At first out of state permits ME had reciprocity with were ok in Arcadia.. then the law was looked at and the way the wording was it could be interpreted that only Maine resident permits were acceptable... which we all disagreed with that interpretation... then they now went back to this. It only makes sense the way they do it now.

That is what happened to state parks. Permitted carry was always legal in state parks until the state park people looked at one of their rules about guns in parts of the park where it was not legal to hunt. They started to interpret that as meaning no CCW in parks. Then the Augusta had to make a law correcting it. But when they did that, they only changed the law with in the State Park title.. not realizing that Baxter State Park is not covered by that title buy one of their own. So.. the law ended up not being covered in BSP.

 

[NHKevin]

There is no R in Acadia.

 

[NinerMaine]

There is no R in Aca
LOL... unless you live in Maine.. then we say.. ARRRRRcadia.

 

[Racenet]

There is no R in Acadia.

This is no R in Honda or idea either, but......