Mass. State oPolice is making me want to shoot myself. -It would be easier

[Bill Nance]

I am a Mass. cer6tified instructor. I received my training and BFS when I was living in Mass. and had a resident LTC.

I have moved to Washington State. As required, I notified the Lowell PD and the State police of my change of address as of Oct, 2010.

I now have students requesting certification for FID/LTC cards in Mass.

I am concerned that my BFS may not be valid since I don't have a non-resident LTC. So I call the state police to see if I'm required to have a non-resident LTC to maintain my BFS. First I get the Firearms registration people, who tell me they aren't sure and refer me to the Criminal History Systems Board. They, in turn, refer me to the legal department, who then, in turn, refer me to the firearms registration people.

I explain that I've already spoken to the firearms registration people and they didn't know. And as they are the legal department, they presumably know the answer to this question. (My license expires in 2019). The legal department refers me to one of the staff lawyers, who is very nice, but tells me that the question is out of his area of expertise and he will have to check with his supervisor.

I call his supervisor, who refers me to the CHSB/CORI. When I question this referral I am told that's all he can do. I call the CHSB and am again referred to the legal dept.

I am about ready to shoot myself. Or possibly, the next poor bastard who asks me about a Mass. certification of training. Or maybe both of us, just to save everyone the trouble. I'm thinking death isn't so bad. After all, I could be consigned to this phone call Hell some more, which would be marginally worse than simply rotting as worm food.

Please save me the cost of a burial for me and possibly a very nice, attentive student, who has done nothing wrong but have the incredibly bad taste/luck to get stuck in the PRM.

WTF do I need to do? MUST I have a non-res LTC? Should I just brazen it out and send in the registration with my existing BFS? Will my students have issues trying to get a LTC/FID card with my BFS on their certs?

Or should I just give it all up, refer them to someone I know in Mass and tell them that the $$ they spend is utter BS since they have the identical course and yes, it sucks to be them?

Or perhaps would it be better to just shoot myself, since the mere understanding of how F'd up the PRM can be is enough to make any sane person want to die a horrible death?

-Best wishes,

Hoping to not die, but thinking about it.....

Bill

 

[KMaurer]

The problem is finding the right people. CHSB/FRB has absolutely nothing to do with it. BFSI certification is entirely under the control of the State Police. There are no statutory requirements, only the ones they create. I'd call them and not mention anything about having moved out of state or not having a non-resident LTC until you get to someone who's prepared to give you answers about whether your BFSI certification is still valid. Then and only then would I fill in the details. Any other approach just gives someone who doesn't have a clue to deflect the question from their agency.

Ken

 

[kevin9]

Not sure how much a help this will be, but it appears that the applicable MGL does not require instructors to have an FID or LTC whereas the applicable MSP regulations seem to imply that licenses are required. There does appear to be some wiggle room in that the regs say:

For certification as a firearms safety instructor, a person shall be properly licensed with a FID card or LTC as required by law.

The law does not require that instructors have an FID or LTC as a matter of course, nor does it require that someone have a MA license if they do not come into the state. Since you're not required by law to have a license I suppose one could argue that clause in the reg does not apply to you. Good luck getting a straight read.

 

[MasterShinken]

I am also interested in this, as I'm moving to NH, but wish to continue to teach mass BFS class. Goodluck, i'll try to get some answers on my end as well and let you know if I find anything.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Not sure how much a help this will be, but it appears that the applicable MGL does not require instructors to have an FID or LTC whereas the applicable MSP regulations seem to imply that licenses are required. There does appear to be some wiggle room in that the regs say: The law does not require that instructors have an FID or LTC as a matter of course, nor does it require that someone have a MA license if they do not come into the state. Since you're not required by law to have a license I suppose one could argue that clause in the reg does not apply to you. Good luck getting a straight read.

What you are about to learn is that MA State Police/EOPS administration "make up law" to suit their purposes. They regularly go beyond the bounds of legislative law intentionally "interpreting" the law extra-liberally in their CMRs and policies. They are immune and impervious to any legal sanctions and become arrogant when challenged on "what authority allows you to do <insert policy here>" and stone-wall.

Sometimes it does not pay to poke the bear in the eye, unless you have snipers on your team to protect yourself from a very irritated bear.

 

[yanici]

This would seem to be a fairly common occurrence, you would think. Crazy that nobody seems to have the "final, correct" answer. Another problem with MA laws.

 

[el duderino]

I took my class in NH at Gun and Sport North, but they may have still been operating under their license from when they were in Lawrence. They just want to create as much red tape as possible to cut down on the amount of licenses.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

They just want to create as much red tape as possible to cut down on the amount of licenses.

I doubt that's the motivation. The MSP procedure for obtaining instructor certification has been straightforward, does not involve a lot of hassle (nobody created a mandatory instructor course run by the state you have to attend like the ones for UT or TX certification, or added undue obstacles - requirements are a copy of your NRA or other recognized instructor cert; a copy of your LTC and $50.00). The MSP had the instructor certification program ready to go from "day 1", and some of us were certified on the first day the new law went into effect (which is how I ended up with #007).

What requiring a current LTC does is avoid the embarrassment of having a certified instructor who is charged with or convicted of a crime. Since the process is already in place to track court activity and revoke LTCs when the holder becomes ineligible, it is much easier to simply require an active LTC than to establish a similar proactive notification and revocation system for instructor certifications.

 

[KMaurer]

While they're not making up laws as a lot of other agencies tend to do, there does tend to be a bit of confusion regarding the LTC requirement. It was penciled in on the application after the process started, and while they now won't issue a BFSI number if you don't have an LTC, it's not clear whether you need to maintain your license if you're in state or get a non-resident LTC if you move out of state. I've never been able to get anything in writing on the exact policy.

Ken

 

[Rob Boudrie]

s not clear whether you need to maintain your license if you're in state or get a non-resident LTC if you move out of state. I've never been able to get anything in writing on the exact policy.

They were kind enough to send it to me - and I didn't even ask for it. I'll bet you received a copy as well, since I assume you have your MA instructor cert.

I received a letter from the MSP dated October 26, 2006 that included the following statements:

"You must inform the Colonel i writing if your License to Carry (LTC) or Firearms Identification Card has been revoked, suspended, or not renewed"

"Firearms Safety Course Instructors who maintain a permanent resident outside the Commonwealth of Massachsetts will be required to obtain a Non-resident LTC if they wish to renew their Firearms Safety Course Certification upon its expiration".​

It also states that the instructors must adhere to all requirements of 515CMR3.04, 3.04

CMR 3.04 includes:

"For certification as a firearms instructor, a person shall be properly licensed with a FID card or LTC as required by law, and may only offer instruction on those firearms for which he is licensed"
​

The "may only offer instruction on" would seem to pretty clearly state that this requirement must be met at the time the instruction is given, not just at the time of obtaining instructor certification.

 

[KMaurer]

You'd lose that bet, but thanks for the information.

Ken

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You'd lose that bet, but thanks for the information.

Ken

Did you at least get a copy of the CMR with your renewal certificate? I received a large envelope that contained the certificate, a cover letter from the MSP, and a copy of the CMR when my renewal came up in 2008.

 

[Bill Nance]

They were kind enough to send it to me - and I didn't even ask for it. I'll bet you received a copy as well, since I assume you have your MA instructor cert.

I received a letter from the MSP dated October 26, 2006 that included the following statements:

"You must inform the Colonel i writing if your License to Carry (LTC) or Firearms Identification Card has been revoked, suspended, or not renewed"

"Firearms Safety Course Instructors who maintain a permanent resident outside the Commonwealth of Massachsetts will be required to obtain a Non-resident LTC if they wish to renew their Firearms Safety Course Certification upon its expiration".​

It also states that the instructors must adhere to all requirements of 515CMR3.04, 3.04

CMR 3.04 includes:

"For certification as a firearms instructor, a person shall be properly licensed with a FID card or LTC as required by law, and may only offer instruction on those firearms for which he is licensed"


​

The "may only offer instruction on" would seem to pretty clearly state that this requirement must be met at the time the instruction is given, not just at the time of obtaining instructor certification.

Rob, that's exactly the issue. I meet, so far as I can tell, the criteria. the "may only offer instruction on" part is clearly not addressing people who already have a LTC and certification but have moved. You don't take one comma separated statement which is clearly completing the original sentence (which is addressing licensing, not maintenance of license) totally by itself.

Since I require no license whatever to own anything here, the notion that I would have to maintain a non-res LTC or have my instructor cert yanked doesn't make any sense. And since I long ago informed Lowell that I had moved out of state, they should have it in their records to revoke me if that's the process. So far I've heard nada.

And yes, I DID call the state police. They are the ones who sent me all over Hell and gone in the first place. And yes, they have my current address.

I think at this point I'm going to assume my cert is good. The State Police seemed to think so when they looked it up. I won't be able to renew in 8 years without a non-res, but that's a long time away.

 

[robmcd]

There is no question that you must maintain a MA LTC in order to retain your BFS course instructor status. The system just hasn't caught up with you yet. You need to speak directly with the following individual. He runs both the narcotics and fireams units, so don't be surprised when you hear "narcotics division" on his voice mail:

Detective Lieutenant Robert Nugent
Massachusetts State Police
485 Maple Street
Danvers, MA 01923
Office: 978-538-6043
Fax: 978-538-6085

 

[ProShooter]

Side question here, but are there that many people in Washington State looking for Mass. Permits?

 

[Bill Nance]

According to the firearms guys at the state police they get requests all the time. I have one who just finished a class from me and I'm in Hicksville.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

According to the firearms guys at the state police they get requests all the time. I have one who just finished a class from me and I'm in Hicksville.

It much be techies making the Seattle to Boston run, or people who don't yet have the work about the MA "in person" requirement.

If you can get one a referral list be "the" go-to person for this, you can see if you can time an annual pilgrimage to the DCJIS to coincide with an NES shoot and have your students cover the cost of travel.