Mass shooting @ Baptist church Sutherland Springs, Texas

calsdad

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This is the only article I found that identified the good guy's rifle as an AR15. The MSM is trying to bury that fact in the depths of hell.

http://www.faithwire.com/2017/11/06/meet-the-hero-plumber-who-woke-up-from-a-nap-and-immediately-confronted-the-texas-church-killer/
This event is a godsend for people who want to argue with the lefties in their life about how people should be allowed to own firearms - and why the AR is not an evil black killing machine.

The problem here is not with the event - it's with people's inability to use this gift to argue down the idiotic lefties who will twist every fact and lie at every step of the way to try and push their agenda.

Up your game and use the gift God just gave you to beat them even further into the ground.
 

Bob P

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If we were all speaking German right now - we probably wouldn't have this issue.

The shooter would have been sent to a camp or a "work battalion" in the Wehrmacht.

And there would be no such thing as BLM, Antifah - or any of the other assorted lunacy we're seeing from the left recently.


Just saying.................. it might not be as bad as you think.
I mean aside from those pesky things like government sponsored mass murder, euthanasia of anyone with any kind of birth defect, no Constitution limiting the horrendous excesses government can stoop to - hey no FREEDOM at all. But yeah, other than that it would be awesome! Wooo! Go Nazis.
 
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NICS only prevents some people from buying guns legally. Any one or more people who want guns can get them because they’re criminals. The only way to stop a criminal is the way Williford stopped this criminal.

Thank you. I️ should have been more verbose in my post.

The bottom line is that the libtard solution to a failed .gov process is not to improve the process, it is to add moar processes that are equally as ineffective yet employ more zombies.


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Bob P

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Trying to avoid Godwin's law here as much as I can...........

Tyranny didn't propel Hitler into power. A completely screwed up country - run by a liberal regime BTW - is what "propelled" the Nazis into power.

As far as being a "tyranny" - it was pretty much only a tyranny if you were on the Nazi's shit list. Regular Germans thought they were living better at the time. Superhighways. Volkswagens. Everybody had a job. Etc.

It wasn't until after the war when the whole thing fell down into a heaping pile of rubble and the country was split into two parts - and millions upon millions of Germans were dead , that the majority started thinking the Nazis were complete and utter shit.



Compare that against the communist regime in Russia - and there's a big difference. The commies were killing people off right from the get go. They were genociding "enemies of the state" right from the start. And you could be in the in crowd one day - and breaking rocks in Siberia a week later.

Solzenitzyn wrote a lot about what it was like in the Soviet Union. NKVD went thru entire cities at night and just gathered people up by the hundreds or thousands. Yes - the Nazis went after the Jews , and they also did stuff like clear out the "defectives" from convalescent homes and so forth, but for many if not most Germans living under Nazism wasn't a never ending cycle of fear and "tyranny" as it was under the Soviet communist regime.

One of these is not exactly the same as the other. And things change over time. If we had actually been conquered by the Nazis ( a premise I find laughable in the first place) - then if we were still being ruled by them 72 years later you can be sure it wouldn't be exactly the same kind of social and political environment that it was during the WW2 years in Europe. That's why I said: You likely would not have had the church shooter - the guy would have been dealt with and dealt with harshly before he even got as far as he did. I don't recall the Germans being all that lenient towards paperwork screwups. You also wouldn't be dealing with BLM, Antifah, pussy hat marches, liberal freak outs in the media - etc.
Yeah. You wouldn't have a church shooter because in 1934 the Nazi Party confiscated all privately owned weapons.
 

PaulR

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Clear as day bias?: Driving home yesterday listening to NPR news "At this point we believe the shooter died from a self inflicted wound"

30 seconds later I change to Fox news: "The shooter was shot at least twice, once in the side next to his bullet proof vest from a plumber who was an experienced marksman"
 

CatSnoutSoup

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Exactly. And that’s the reason to not allow them the NICS check system.
It is not going anywhere, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it or endorse its existence.

That said, there seems more then a few people here that are going to be fine with the expansion to NICS that you know is going to be called for by the anti-gun crowd any minute now.

Private sales are on their agenda and even though unrelated to this incident they will try and parlay this into a knee-jerk cave-in by .gov

But hey let’s not stop there, for those eager to hold the pen while .gov signs us all up for a new and expanded NICS perhaps recommend including a credit check while you are at it. Poor credit ratings are just about as effective a predicator of criminality apparently.

https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/my-money/articles/2016-06-17/3-observations-from-cities-with-the-best-and-worst-credit-scores

Perhaps unsurprisingly, crime is also far more prevalent in the areas with the lowest credit scores. The worst-credit cities average 421 violent crimes per year, according to FBI data, compared to 138 for the best-credit cities. That’s a crime-rate disparity of 206 percent between two groups whose average credit scores are only 30 percent apart.
Maybe we can work our way up to an NICS check of DNA to confirm ID for the national registry that will also be just a hop-skip-and-jump behind common acceptence of any of this crap.

For those of us old enough to remember honest folks got by fairly well before Chuck Schummer, and some statist republician allies, brought us NICS infringement rather than deal directly with the revolving door legal system and degenerating mores of decency his party’s policey propped up and fostered.
 
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Trying to avoid Godwin's law here as much as I can...........

Tyranny didn't propel Hitler into power. A completely screwed up country - run by a liberal regime BTW - is what "propelled" the Nazis into power.

As far as being a "tyranny" - it was pretty much only a tyranny if you were on the Nazi's shit list. Regular Germans thought they were living better at the time. Superhighways. Volkswagens. Everybody had a job. Etc.

It wasn't until after the war when the whole thing fell down into a heaping pile of rubble and the country was split into two parts - and millions upon millions of Germans were dead , that the majority started thinking the Nazis were complete and utter shit.



Compare that against the communist regime in Russia - and there's a big difference. The commies were killing people off right from the get go. They were genociding "enemies of the state" right from the start. And you could be in the in crowd one day - and breaking rocks in Siberia a week later.

Solzenitzyn wrote a lot about what it was like in the Soviet Union. NKVD went thru entire cities at night and just gathered people up by the hundreds or thousands. Yes - the Nazis went after the Jews , and they also did stuff like clear out the "defectives" from convalescent homes and so forth, but for many if not most Germans living under Nazism wasn't a never ending cycle of fear and "tyranny" as it was under the Soviet communist regime.

One of these is not exactly the same as the other. And things change over time. If we had actually been conquered by the Nazis ( a premise I find laughable in the first place) - then if we were still being ruled by them 72 years later you can be sure it wouldn't be exactly the same kind of social and political environment that it was during the WW2 years in Europe. That's why I said: You likely would not have had the church shooter - the guy would have been dealt with and dealt with harshly before he even got as far as he did. I don't recall the Germans being all that lenient towards paperwork screwups. You also wouldn't be dealing with BLM, Antifah, pussy hat marches, liberal freak outs in the media - etc.
That's called tyranny. When anyone who the authority suspects might be a problem is "dealt with and dealt with harshly." I don't give a **** if you aren't the target of the government, when people start "getting disappeared" for whatever reason the government deems necessary, you don't live a laid back life.

Mike
 

Ben Cartwright SASS

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Maybe we can work our way up to an NICS check of DNA to confirm ID for the national registry that will also be just a hop-skip-and-jump behind common acceptence of any of this crap.
In the '70's Hal Lindsay predicted this in a series of books about the coming Apocalypse "The Late Great Planet Earth" and a national ID tattooed on your forehead without which you couldn't buy or sell or do anything... back then they hadn't thought about computer chips in your body to do that same thing. They are starting it with medical stuff, financial only a short way away, all dogs that are adopted get a similar chip now.
 

Horrible

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Thank you. I️ should have been more verbose in my post.

The bottom line is that the libtard solution to a failed .gov process is not to improve the process, it is to add moar processes that are equally as ineffective yet employ more zombies.


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Which further proves the point of what gun control REALLY is (CONTROL) and is NOT (a savior)!
 
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Arguing the background check angle merely plays into their hand as it is an argument for MORE government control not less.
In a way. But NICS isn’t going anywhere. And the fact remains that it would have/should have worked in this case, if Airman Snuffy hadn’t been feeling lazy that day. I think we’ll get more mileage out of the argument that existing laws are enough, which they are. More than. ... Love NICS or hate it, this is precisely the situation it exists to prevent. And it would, if everyone was doing their simple job.
NICS only prevents some people from buying guns legally. Any one or more people who want guns can get them because they’re criminals. The only way to stop a criminal is the way Williford stopped this criminal.
The problem with supporting the NICS check system is that if it did work in this case and the dirtbag got a gun anyway the libtards would be calling for more laws.
I realize arguing the NICS angle with the gun ban crowd is a lose-lose proposition as they'll twist it to their advantage regardless (ex. NICS should have worked but for the USAF fools: "Well then we need to fix it to make it foolproof." ... See NICS doesn't work: "Well we need to replace it with a better system.").

My frustration with the situation is that the government requires us to abide by the rules, and punishes us if we don't (and sometimes even if we do), yet government organizations can flaunt the rules all day long without repercussions.
</minirant>
 

W.E.C

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Best comment: "If this was in the UK both these men would have been arrested for murder and booked for speeding and driving without due care and attention."
Same goes for Massachusetts in general, and boston would be dragging out skeleton boy and maahty fo the “we got the guns off the street” old saw.
 
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mibro

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What a stud.

This is great, everyone should watch this. I am going to work extra hard at getting some more training in coming weeks.
Training doesn't hurt but in the end it's the will to act that matters. Willeford was protecting his extended family, his community.

It's also a great idea to bring a rifle to a pistol fight as adrenaline degrades your fine motor skills more than you would believe.
 

calsdad

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LOL! Major news carriers are now picking up on the story but refuse to mention Willeford was a former NRA instructor. They are going with "experienced rifleman" so they don't have to say anything that could be considered positive about the NRA.
So run with that. Point out that the guy had enough training that when his time came and he was Johnny on the Spot, he was able to perform over and above and take the guy out. The news media is completely butchering this story. Last night on the nightly news I saw all three networks claiming that the guy committed suicide in his truck. I listened to the Crowder interview - and it sure seems from the good shooter's description of the way that the end of the chase went down - that his rounds that hit him were probably doing their damage. The bad shooter was losing his ability to control the vehicle because he was dying - and they he waited outside the truck for 6 or 7 minutes or whatever it was - and the guy never even returned fire.

If the bad shooter actually did shoot himself in the head ( I haven't seen any authoritative news reports saying he did) - it was likely because he already knew he was a goner.

You don't even have to mention NRA to make the point that the good shooter was TRAINED - and was thus able to perform over and above a standard that most of our police officers across the country who get involved in these types of incidents seem unable to display.

If you want to plant a seed in somebody's head - then start mentioning groups like Appleseed or any of the paid-for training schools that are out there.

The acronym NRA doesn't even have to come into the conversation if that is going to setoff the stupid leftie and prevent you from making any further points.
 

mibro

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Yeah. You wouldn't have a church shooter because in 1934 the Nazi Party confiscated all privately owned weapons.
No they didn't. This myth will be around for ever.

The German people were disarmed by the Versailles Treaty. The Nazis liberalized gun laws in general while simultaneously disarming "unreliable persons," particularly Jewish people.

If you're interested in the actual history of German gun control as opposed to the myth, there's an excellent article at the Fordham Law Review, Volume 73, Issue 2.

On Gun Registration, the NRA, Adolf Hitler, and Nazi Gun Laws: Exploding the Gun Culture Wars (A Call to Historians)
 
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No they didn't. This myth will be around for ever.

The German people were disarmed by the Versailles Treaty. The Nazis liberalized gun laws in general while simultaneously disarming "unreliable persons," particularly Jewish people.

If you're interested in the actual history of German gun control as opposed to the myth, there's an excellent article at the Fordham Law Review, Volume 73, Issue 2.

On Gun Registration, the NRA, Adolf Hitler, and Nazi Gun Laws: Exploding the Gun Culture Wars (A Call to Historians)
True, but the moral of this fable is that governments always disarm those they intend to exterminate.

It's like the fake "rifle behind every blade of grass" quote. It's not true, but it's still true.
 
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This event is a godsend for people who want to argue with the lefties in their life about how people should be allowed to own firearms - and why the AR is not an evil black killing machine.

The problem here is not with the event - it's with people's inability to use this gift to argue down the idiotic lefties who will twist every fact and lie at every step of the way to try and push their agenda.

Up your game and use the gift God just gave you to beat them even further into the ground.
I've thought about this extensively, but it doesn't matter to anti gunners. It frankly doesn't matter if any good guy with a gun stops a shooting. Their minds are made up. This shooting, despite the end result reflecting well on gun owners, only fuels the desire for confiscation from the now militantly anti gun, urban left, and urban center right.
 
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Help I'm steppin' into the twilight zone
So run with that. Point out that the guy had enough training that when his time came and he was Johnny on the Spot, he was able to perform over and above and take the guy out. The news media is completely butchering this story. Last night on the nightly news I saw all three networks claiming that the guy committed suicide in his truck. I listened to the Crowder interview - and it sure seems from the good shooter's description of the way that the end of the chase went down - that his rounds that hit him were probably doing their damage. The bad shooter was losing his ability to control the vehicle because he was dying - and they he waited outside the truck for 6 or 7 minutes or whatever it was - and the guy never even returned fire.

If the bad shooter actually did shoot himself in the head ( I haven't seen any authoritative news reports saying he did) - it was likely because he already knew he was a goner.

You don't even have to mention NRA to make the point that the good shooter was TRAINED - and was thus able to perform over and above a standard that most of our police officers across the country who get involved in these types of incidents seem unable to display.

If you want to plant a seed in somebody's head - then start mentioning groups like Appleseed or any of the paid-for training schools that are out there.

The acronym NRA doesn't even have to come into the conversation if that is going to setoff the stupid leftie and prevent you from making any further points.
That right there is a huge point. No cops were around and even if there were any they have shown over and over again that they lack the desire and ability to do what this guy did. I'm not trying to bash cops but when it's your job vs you are protecting your loved ones and your neighbors/community the stakes are higher. The situation gets handled instead of relying on cops to arrive then have them huddling in safe spaces (stairways) waiting for the shooting to stop because it's just a job to them, not their loved ones and they are determined to go home safely no matter what.
 

SKumar

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Go to CNNs website right now. There are about 30 headlines about the shooting, ZERO of them are about the hero that stopped the attack. If they even touch the hero, they would have no choice but to acknowledge that good guys with AR15s stop bad guys with AR15s. FAKE NEWS
 

mibro

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You don't even have to mention NRA to make the point that the good shooter was TRAINED - and was thus able to perform over and above a standard that most of our police officers across the country who get involved in these types of incidents seem unable to display.
I'll repeat the point I made earlier. Listen to the Crowder interview and you'll see Willeford was protecting people he thought of as family. He was very motivated to run towards the gunfire.

Some police officers have shown similar bravery, others haven't - e.g. Columbine. The police are also constrained by departmental doctrine.

Bottom line, it's the will to act that counts. You might think you have it but you won't know for sure unless you find yourself in similar circumstances.
 
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It's time to retire that trope as it's starting to look like the lesser of two evils.
Meh, I'm ****ing tired of apologizing for being a white male. I didn't have any choice and I've made the best of it, if all of us evil old white males stopped paying our taxes this country would grind to a stop.

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drgrant

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I've thought about this extensively, but it doesn't matter to anti gunners. It frankly doesn't matter if any good guy with a gun stops a shooting. Their minds are made up.
It's not "them" we care about its the NONS that we care about seeing that stuff. That's the kind of stuff that nons will actually pay attention to. It's the type of thing that keeps the nons from joining "them" . It makes nons think more about what actually happened. "hmm, it seems like every time one of these things happen, the only thing that can stop it is a good guy with a gun, whether its a cop or someone else" that kind of thing. There are a lot of people in this country that are stupid, but if the nons were overwhelmingly retarded, all guns would have been banned already.

This shooting, despite the end result reflecting well on gun owners, only fuels the desire for confiscation from the now militantly anti gun, urban left, and urban center right.
Not really. Despite the fact that kids got killed, etc, the memetic value of this event is not huge. "chuch in a flyover conservative state" puts this like at minus 60 points out of the gate. This will mostly be out of the news cycle by the end of the week. (I'd be surprised if it makes it to Thursday, actually). "'they" don't like the victims, and "they" also don't like the fact that a citizen effectively stopped this POS.

Also, stop giving the antis way too much credit- those blocks you describe, are not a huge portion of the population. You must have lived in MA at one time and that pollution hasn't entirely left. Most of america ain't that ****ed up, at least not in a political vs geography sense.....

-Mike
 
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drgrant

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Wrong.

It's a gift that we can use to bury their agenda.
This, as a matter of fact I would be surprised if this survives till weds or thursday in the news cycle, the moonbats want this to go away- because the more people talk about it the more that it will come out that a dangerous shitstain got stopped by a brave citizen with a gun.

-Mike
 

calsdad

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That right there is a huge point. No cops were around and even if there were any they have shown over and over again that they lack the desire and ability to do what this guy did. I'm not trying to bash cops but when it's your job vs you are protecting your loved ones and your neighbors/community the stakes are higher. The situation gets handled instead of relying on cops to arrive then have them huddling in safe spaces (stairways) waiting for the shooting to stop because it's just a job to them, not their loved ones and they are determined to go home safely no matter what.
My posts probably come off sometimes as cop bashing. I understand that. It's not really my intent.

But we've got a really big problem in this country because there are a lot of people in the police community, in the government at all levels, and in leftist political community in particular - that think we should all be disarmed.

When you're stuck in a fight for survival - you don't sit around and try to understand the enemy's viewpoint. You bury them however you can. Since the left seems intent in taking away our most basic rights, and will use the " police are the only ones who should have guns " excuse each and every time they make another attempt at gun grabbing ..... AND, seeing as how we have dozens of examples of police behavior during shootouts showing them shooting off hundreds of rounds to little effect - I feel that (unfortunately) one of the methods that must be used to beat down the gun grabbers - is to attack police competence.

When I see law enforcement in this country start doing their goddam jobs and stop acting as agents for removal of my basic right to defend myself I'll change my tune. Until then - I'm going to strategically continue to throw them under the bus.

- - - Updated - - -

This, as a matter of fact I would be surprised if this survives till weds or thursday in the news cycle, the moonbats want this to go away- because the more people talk about it the more that it will come out that a dangerous shitstain got stopped by a brave citizen with a gun.

-Mike
Exactly. This is why I hope leftist gun grabbing retards continue to act as expected and try to make points with this incident. It only furthers OUR agenda IMHO.
 
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